On Christian Hope

[ex_restless]

Recently I posed the question, "What do you believe is the ultimate Christian hope?" I was very interested in the variety of responses (from the various communities where I posted, as well as my own blog), and now would like to share my own thoughts on the subject.

Comments

[theendless]

This is sooooo good. What a great thing to read on a Sunday, thank you!

[ex_restless]

:-)

[alexeivaron]

Thanks for sharing! This was a really good read :D

[ex_restless]

Thanks :)

please be patient and see if we can explore together (1)

[susannah]

"Plato looks at the soul as being the real thing of the person, the only thing that matters, and the body as but a prison from which the soul is mercifully released at death."Yes, but I don't see heaven, or the resurrected body as non-corporeal or non-physical, bur as supra-physical... in other words, the things of heaven and eternity are the deeper reality and are far *more* physical and substantial than the things of this passing world

Re: please be patient and see if we can explore together (1)

[ex_restless]

I haven't read all of this yet, but I want to ask you a question, and this is important: on what basis do you come up with your ideas of heaven and resurrection? I would suggest that when you say things like, "I don't see heaven or the resurrected body as non-corporeal or non-physical, but as supra-physical... in other words, the things of heaven and eternity are the deeper reality and are far *more* physical and substantial than the things of this passing world., you seem to be basing this off your own self-conceived conceptions, perhaps amalgamations of various philosophies and theologies. I think just generally speaking, as a sort of guide for you, what would really benefit you greatly is a great deconstruction of your overarching theology and theological method, and a reconstruction altogether based solidly on apostolic teaching. This is a heavy task, I understand, but I think it's the only way forward for you.

Re: please be patient and see if we can explore together (1)

[susannah]

Thank you for your (considerable) patience, and the kindness and help you've given me outside of this forum.

My ideas of heaven and resurrection are based on three things. Firstly my belief in resurrection stems from my conversion encounter with Jesus Christ 30 years ago. Secondly, there is clear and demonstrable evidence, taking the bible as a whole, and not isolating individual verses, that heaven is recognised by the authors as a place where God dwells in eternity, and that resurrection from the dead is a clear and definite hope of the Christians who wrote the New Testament. Thirdly, and with reference to the substantiality and physicality of deeper and eternal reality, I base that conviction on spiritual events and encounters that convince me, beyond personal doubt, that our own physical world is actually rather sub-physical, little more than a shadow version of full life and physicality.

"...perhaps amalgamations of various philosophies and theologies..."No, truly. The awareness of heavenly realities is not something you can

Re: please be patient and see if we can explore together (1)

[underhiswings1]

are there any "parts" of the bible that ARE literally true?

please be patient and see if we can explore together (2)

[susannah]

(continued...)

Some would disagree with that, but even if they do, nevertheless I would not want to airbrush the very personal and very individual dimension of salvation out of existence. It's not either... or, but *both*. We find fulfilment of ourselves in relationship with others and primarily with God. If I go and live on an island with a coconut tree all on my own, I am likely to end up a diminished person because I never grew through relationships towards the whole of who I really am. (Of course that metaphor breaks down a little if I spend my time on the island in deep relationship with God, but my point is to agree with your statement that the completion of the wholeness of our salvation involves relationships and community.)

But our personal relationship with Christ, one-to-one is also *huge*, and it seems to me to be entirely alright to long to be with Christ in eternity, in a relationship personalised as lover and lover, notwithstanding the whole Church is also portrayed that way.

"There is no such thing as "my personal

Re: please be patient and see if we can explore together (2)

[ex_restless]

I believe heaven is more substantial, not less substantial

Based on what? Again, see above.

However, I would say that heaven is neither more nor less substantial, but rather is an entirely different substance altogether, if we understand substance to be the nature of a thing.

Re: please be patient and see if we can explore together (2)

[susannah]

"...if we understand substance to be the nature of a thing..."

if we understand substance to be *A* nature of a thing...

Based on experience and encounter, which really is just an explanation of why I believe like I believe, since you have no means of reconstructing things that happen in other people's spiritual lives.

"I would say that heaven is neither more nor less substantial."

Fair enough. I just don't agree. I believe heaven and the reality beyond this world is *far far* more substantial. Physically, sensually, tangibly *so* much more substantial.

please be patient and see if we can explore together (3)

[susannah]

(continued

Re: please be patient and see if we can explore together (3)

[ex_restless]

And Heaven is an adequate term to describe the place we go to, and there are so many mysteries deeper and beyond, but sharing Therese's simplicity, and the simplicity of common, ordinary people: I look for eternal life in heaven with my lover, and may Christ dwell with his bride and with his people, in what I just call "the beautiful country".

Again, see comment above. This has absolutely no basis whatsoever in Scripture, in the teachings of Christ and his apostles, and in the historical witness of the Church. You've basically created your own religion here. Again, why I think it is so important that you take seriously the path of deconstruction so that you might have your theological vision rebuilt on the solid foundation of Christ and the apostolic witness of the Church.

Re: please be patient and see if we can explore together (3)

[susannah]

"This has absolutely no basis whatsoever in Scripture"

Yes it does I believe:

"Heaven is an adequate term to describe the place we go to" - check

"there are so many mysteries deeper and beyond" - check

"I look for eternal life" - check

IN HEAVEN < you are arguing this, I'm saying heaven could be used as an understood term for where we go after death to be with God

Re: please be patient and see if we can explore together (3)

[stonecold4jesus]

susannahclark, may I ask you how you interpret scripture passages that describe or insinuate God as spirit? One example that I was able to quickly find is John 4:24, "God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and in truth." There's nothing wrong with your quoting of St. Therese of Lisieux, but I don't think that her desire to be with Jesus in the 'beautiful country' rightly implies any kind of physicality. It might, however, imply the presence of perfect substance in an Aristotelian sense of the term, but I tend to get impatient with Aristotle so I wouldn't be the one to ask.

What do you mean by physicality? I think I can guess, but this is important to me not only for the reasons restless_friar has given, but also because of the work and research I am doing on God/love as paradox, primarily via the writing of Jean-Luc Marion. In a nutshell, one of the foundational premises of his work (which is largely based on the work of others before him, from my understanding, including such as Hans Ur von Balthasar) is the necessity of two