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ex_restless in christianity

On Christian Hope

Jan 17, 2010 07:32

Recently I posed the question, "What do you believe is the ultimate Christian hope?" I was very interested in the variety of responses (from the various communities where I posted, as well as my own blog), and now would like to share my own thoughts on the subject.

( Under the cut )

hope, eschatology

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please be patient and see if we can explore together (1) susannah January 17 2010, 16:54:24 UTC

"Plato looks at the soul as being the real thing of the person, the only thing that matters, and the body as but a prison from which the soul is mercifully released at death."Yes, but I don't see heaven, or the resurrected body as non-corporeal or non-physical, bur as supra-physical... in other words, the things of heaven and eternity are the deeper reality and are far *more* physical and substantial than the things of this passing world ( ... )

Re: please be patient and see if we can explore together (1) ex_restless January 17 2010, 17:33:03 UTC

I haven't read all of this yet, but I want to ask you a question, and this is important: on what basis do you come up with your ideas of heaven and resurrection? I would suggest that when you say things like, "I don't see heaven or the resurrected body as non-corporeal or non-physical, but as supra-physical... in other words, the things of heaven and eternity are the deeper reality and are far *more* physical and substantial than the things of this passing world., you seem to be basing this off your own self-conceived conceptions, perhaps amalgamations of various philosophies and theologies. I think just generally speaking, as a sort of guide for you, what would really benefit you greatly is a great deconstruction of your overarching theology and theological method, and a reconstruction altogether based solidly on apostolic teaching. This is a heavy task, I understand, but I think it's the only way forward for you.

Re: please be patient and see if we can explore together (1) susannah January 17 2010, 18:58:40 UTC

Thank you for your (considerable) patience, and the kindness and help you've given me outside of this forum.

My ideas of heaven and resurrection are based on three things. Firstly my belief in resurrection stems from my conversion encounter with Jesus Christ 30 years ago. Secondly, there is clear and demonstrable evidence, taking the bible as a whole, and not isolating individual verses, that heaven is recognised by the authors as a place where God dwells in eternity, and that resurrection from the dead is a clear and definite hope of the Christians who wrote the New Testament. Thirdly, and with reference to the substantiality and physicality of deeper and eternal reality, I base that conviction on spiritual events and encounters that convince me, beyond personal doubt, that our own physical world is actually rather sub-physical, little more than a shadow version of full life and physicality.

"...perhaps amalgamations of various philosophies and theologies..."No, truly. The awareness of heavenly realities is not something you can ( ... )

Re: please be patient and see if we can explore together (1) underhiswings1 January 18 2010, 01:21:01 UTC

are there any "parts" of the bible that ARE literally true?

Re: please be patient and see if we can explore together (1) susannah January 18 2010, 01:52:46 UTC

Yes. Because I am a liberal Christian I don't take everything literally but that doesn't mean I take none of it literally.

Re: please be patient and see if we can explore together (1) underhiswings1 January 18 2010, 02:33:49 UTC

also, i was wondering-- concerning the parts you believe NOT to be literally true: do you believe them to be outright false, or, do you just believe them to convey truth in some way other than literal, such as figurative or allegorical?

how do you, personally, determine which parts are literally true and which are not?

thanks!

Re: please be patient and see if we can explore together (1) susannah January 18 2010, 11:01:20 UTC

Liberal Christians like myself tend to consider *contexts* of the authorship carefully, and because we do not assume literality, we can consider the possibility that the author was trying to make a profound and spiritual point, but was making it from inside his own cultural knowledge and assumptions ( ... )

Re: please be patient and see if we can explore together (1) ex_restless January 17 2010, 17:34:35 UTC

In short when Jesus died, I believe Jesus died to covenant a relationship with me, the individual, one-to-one

This is inconsistent with Scripture and with the historical teachings of the Church. See comment above.

Re: please be patient and see if we can explore together (1) susannah January 17 2010, 19:04:28 UTC

As I have said in these threads, I believe Jesus made a covenant with us in blood and sacrifice both personally and corporately. It's not 'either... or'.

Do you really think Jesus does not love you, yourself, sacrificially - as well as all others collectively. We relate to Jesus personally. Jesus relates to us personally.

And Jesus knew me before I was born, and knew I needed his sacrifice, and he set out, aware of me, to offer his life for me.

I see nothing inconsistent with the scriptures, providing I also recognise there is an unavoidable communal and relational dimension both to my salvation and my identity.

Re: please be patient and see if we can explore together (1) digifaith January 17 2010, 17:52:24 UTC

I'm curious about this:

in other words, the things of heaven and eternity are the deeper reality and are far *more* physical and substantial than the things of this passing world

I think the "dichotomy" that restless_friar speaks of comes from the fact that many people believe that this world is not the true reality, that there's something "more real" than the physical world, and that we will eventually leave this world behind and move to the "more real" one.

But this world is God's creation, created by his power and to his liking, so this world has to have value, right? Scripture tells us this, I think -- the first thing that leaps to mind is the psalm that speaks of the heavens telling the glory of God.

If God created it and dwells in it, then this world can't simply be a "trial run" that is going to eventually pass away to make room for a deeper reality. The way I see it, this world has to have a meaning and an ultimate destiny of unity with God, just like ourselves.

Re: please be patient and see if we can explore together (1) susannah January 17 2010, 19:17:45 UTC

"...that there's something "more real" than the physical world..."

There is... an even *more* physical world.

What's wrong with physicality when it's perfected?

I think people assume things all get less physical out of morbid views they have of our corrupt physical natures and the problems of physicality.

"this world can't simply be a "trial run" that is going to eventually pass away"I don't see this world sort of being reoccupied by God in some kind of historical timeline. Historically this world will be consumed in fire when the sun expands ( ... )

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