if so, does that contradict jesus saying that hate is murder and always wrong?
Jesus said that if you are angry with a man without cause then you are murduring him.
And we are called to judge other people's actions. For instance, if you say you are a christian, and you go out, set the church on fire, engage in widespread murder, lying deceit, and say that Jesus Christ will bring us all to hell...
Well I can judge you and say sorry, I don't think you're a Christian, sorry. Extreme example, but trying to make the point.
Paul said, as long as it is up to us, live peaceably with one another. Jesus said if a man offended you, confront him, if not, then bring him before a witness, if not bring him before a congregation, and then cast him out as if he was not one of you, something like that.
Any mistakes are mine, as I am kind of tired and frustrated, I hope some of this helps.
actually, the NIV says angry with his brother - which leads to other questions, of course.
i am really not trying to be snarky but how do reconcile saying that christians are supposed to judge actions with the clear command "do not judge"? to me, that reads in any way, in any circumstance we are not to tell someone that they aren't a christian, we aren't to say to random people they are sinning (there is such a thing as rebuking but that's different).
actually, that was paul's way of dealing with a brother caught in sin, and (at least the way i read it) referred to church leadership.
of course, this all begs more questions about sin and redemption.
I'm not going to go out and pass judgment upon you, saying you are evil and you are bad, however, if you say you are a Christian, and your actions and your words, thoughts and deeds prove otherwise. Otherwise, how would we know the difference between a blasphemer and a prophet
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i can understand where you are coming from,but i am not sure we can judge someone's true heart belief by just observing them. i'd posit its more biblical to say that someone isn't a christian because they aren't loving since jesus states we are to be know by our love than to say they aren't a christian because they robbed a bank. but i am not trying to start an argument, just trying to understand different points of view.
interesting that jesus should say like a pagan or tax collector - he ate with both and had the latter for a disciple.
hm, thats an interesting point about love. as i said, i didn't ask to get any particular answer - its just something i've been thinking about. i personally don't see love as morality the same way, say, not lying is seen as morality. i do know we are commanded to love and that christians are know by their love. therefore if an absolute morality necessarily leads to unloving behavior...is that morality right?
It all depends upon the specific nature of the morality: you can have one which demands adherence to the rules, and you can have another which validates adherence but condemns forced obedience.
Is it possible to hold to a standard of absolute morality yet treat those who don't hold to that standard in loving, kind, compassionate way?
Like, say, Jesus did? I have actually been seeing a lot of that lately, in the words of the Desert Fathers and Mothers.
For example, "A certain brother had sinned, and the priest commanded him to go out from the church. But Bessarion rose up and went out with him, saying, "I too am a sinful man.""
Also, "Judge not him who is guilty of fornication, if thou art chaste, or thou thyself wilt offend a similar law. For He who said, 'Thou shalt not fornicate', said also, 'Thou shalt not judge.'" (Sayings of the Elders 9.10, trans. by Helen Waddell, in The Desert FathersThere are many dozens more like this
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Jesus said that if you are angry with a man without cause then you are murduring him.
And we are called to judge other people's actions. For instance, if you say you are a christian, and you go out, set the church on fire, engage in widespread murder, lying deceit, and say that Jesus Christ will bring us all to hell...
Well I can judge you and say sorry, I don't think you're a Christian, sorry. Extreme example, but trying to make the point.
Paul said, as long as it is up to us, live peaceably with one another. Jesus said if a man offended you, confront him, if not, then bring him before a witness, if not bring him before a congregation, and then cast him out as if he was not one of you, something like that.
Any mistakes are mine, as I am kind of tired and frustrated, I hope some of this helps.
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i am really not trying to be snarky but how do reconcile saying that christians are supposed to judge actions with the clear command "do not judge"? to me, that reads in any way, in any circumstance we are not to tell someone that they aren't a christian, we aren't to say to random people they are sinning (there is such a thing as rebuking but that's different).
actually, that was paul's way of dealing with a brother caught in sin, and (at least the way i read it) referred to church leadership.
of course, this all begs more questions about sin and redemption.
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interesting that jesus should say like a pagan or tax collector - he ate with both and had the latter for a disciple.
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I try not to!
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Is it possible to hold to a standard of absolute morality yet treat those who don't hold to that standard in loving, kind, compassionate way?
Like, say, Jesus did? I have actually been seeing a lot of that lately, in the words of the Desert Fathers and Mothers.
For example,
"A certain brother had sinned, and the priest commanded him to go out from the church. But Bessarion rose up and went out with him, saying, "I too am a sinful man.""
Also,
"Judge not him who is guilty of fornication, if thou art chaste, or thou thyself wilt offend a similar law. For He who said, 'Thou shalt not fornicate', said also, 'Thou shalt not judge.'" (Sayings of the Elders 9.10, trans. by Helen Waddell, in The Desert FathersThere are many dozens more like this ( ... )
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