don we now our flameproof armor
I wasn’t going to post publicly about this, because the last time I did (years ago), I was dogpiled horribly and accused of being oversensitive, overreacting, etc. Of course, I was new to fandom (very, very new) and didn’t know how to phrase things without sounding accidentally wanky, and when people who were much more articulate and experienced challenged me, I didn’t know how to respond, and therefore gave up.
But it’s years later now, and I keep on seeing the same thing - the same reactions and judgments, and general ignorance about just why it is some of us have issues with the constant insistence that Sesas are all-inclusive.
This isn't about mamadeb's post (which I didn't agree with, and i think weakened the general argument). It is partially about both the reaction to that post and the reaction I've seen on posts that have spun-off from the original. The reaction to the original post wasn't anti-semitic per se, but it sure as hell was hostile in the extreme, and left me (and many others) feeling very uncomfortable.
Comments I’ve seen today:
”(And don't even get me started about title complaints. It's a line from a song sung around the winter holidays in the English-speaking world that implies an exchange of "treasure" - good fics for obscure fandoms. It's completely appropriate and not meant to be exclusive.)”
”Normally I would totally agree "yes, make a fuss if something is by it's nature exclusive in an offensive way", but in this case the name of the thing doesn't exclude anyone. It doesn't have anything to do with the theme of the fic exchange, even - you can write about anything you like, essentially. The title doesn't stop her from participating and doesn't require that she pretend to be Christian or anything like that.”
”...not this shit again. I like the holidays. I get a big-ass tree in my house, I get to decorate it, and I get to light candles like a pyro and there's music and presents? What's wrong with that?
Some people are just looking for things to be offended about.”
”-Uhm, just curious, does anyone know why mamadeb has an issue with the term "Yuletide"? (No sarcasm, I really do want to know.)
-Not Jewish enough?
- I will use CHARTS because I can't quite phrase it right.
Yule = old term meaning midwinter, of pagan and Northern European.
Christians sometimes refer to the time around their BIG HOLIDAY as Yuletide.
Pagans sometimes refer to the time around their BIG HOLIDAY as Yuletide.
Not referring to any specific faith or denomination = nondenominational.
Therefore, Yuletide = nondenominational. It does refer to the traditions of the Northern Europeans, and it does have pagan and Christian connotations, but it's made relatively generic by virtue of its being used generally to mean midwinter.”
”I honestly think Yuletide was used as a title because of the time of year. And it was easy to remember for most people. Not some deep seeded desire to ostracize a large portion of the people they speak to in fandom circles (because there's a wide range of beliefs on LJ).”
”I would suspect it was a false conception about the origin of the word "yule"-- that "yule" = "Christian celebration." But I'm not going to wade in to ask for clarification!”
”Of course, yuletide the fic fest got its name as a take-off on the previously-running Popslash fest, "Don We Now Our Gay Apparel" (does anyone know if that's evern still going?) by stealing another line from the British folk song "Deck the Halls", which, being a loose translation of an ancient Welsh *New Year's* carol that wasn't even associated with Christmas until about a hundred-fifty years ago, doesn't even mention the Christian holiday once and is about as secular as British folk songs get.
...not that any of that's relevant to someone's internet feelings being hurt.”
”Now, that's just silly. National Jews Go to the Movies Day is one of the most important and sacred days of the year.”
”For me, the reason that strikes me as hypocritical is because she's decided to be offended about a fanfiction thing that has, AFAIK *no trappings of any religious overtones* except the *name*, sort of. And the name isn't "Anyone Who Doesn't Celebrate Christmas Is Going To Hell, Rar," it's Yuletide*. It just looks like she's bound and determined to be offended by *something, because apparently she's not meeting her wank quota.
It's that she's acting like a *name* is oppressive. It is a name. It is not implying that she's a bad person for not celebrating the holiday. No one is even making her sign up for the thing. It's kind of be like showing up at a mall where they have Santa and complaining that they don't have Hannukah Harry there, too.”
“I'm honestly a bit disappointed she didn't go with the Jewish guilt method, now that I think about it. ‘Oh, that's all right, I'll just find another rare fandoms festival, you don't have to worry about how it looks like you're intentionally oppressing me, I'm used to it...’”
“Yule is Winter Solstice. While the term has been co-opted by Christians to overwrite pre-existing European celebrations ... Yule is still a solstice celebration, a holiday to mark the return the light. Which is pretty common in most Northern Hemisphere cultures. Yuletide simply means -- season of the winter solstice.
It also takes place in a time of gift-giving (livening up the drab days of winter!), and these stories, and the moderators' efforts, are a gift.”
As for myself and the post I made a few years ago, I was told in all seriousness that a exchange with the title “Don We Now Our Gay Apparal” and the tagline, “the best present you’ll find under your non-denominational holiday tree”, using the word “Santa” and going live on Christmas Eve, was all-inclusive and I taking things way too seriously and ruining it for everybody.
I don't have a holiday tree. I don't get presents from Santa. I don't sing Christmas Carols, I don't celebrate a thing on Christmas day, and a lot of the time, my "winter holiday" is finished weeks before Christmas. Let's not pretend, folks.
I’m going to repost a (slightly edited) comment I made earlier tonight, because it sums up what I think everybody is missing here.
” I think yuletide (and other sesas) are lovely ideas. It helps celebrate a holiday the dominant part of fandom celebrates and does so with joy and giving and happiness. Plus, I get to read tons of new stories.
All most of us are asking for is some acknowledgment that when a fic exchange takes place over Christmas, co-opts symbols used for Christmas, and goes live on Christmas, that people agree that it's Christmas-based. All we want to hear is, ‘it's true and that sucks for you, but we're trying our best to not make you feel left out; I'm sorry if you do, but that’s the way it is’ Because that is the way it is.
Instead, what we tend to get is mocking at the best, claims of playing the race card and screaming oppression, and accusations of trying to destroy everybody's holiday squee. That's what drives me (and many others) nuts.”
It’s not so crazy to ask for validation when you express your feelings. Nobody is honestly expecting Sesas to change, and why should they? Although, I might say, if naming the ficathon "yuletide" really is about the solstice, why not go live on the solstice instead of on Christmas, therefore making it something that can appeal to almost everybody, because it's a major day everywhere, yes? Whether your days get longer or shorter, it celebrates a change in seasons and attitudes and a way of looking at the world in a new light. Why does it have to go live on Christmas? A billion other ficathons do so already. Why not make this one different?
Because the fact of the matter is, as long as Sesas will continue to revolve around Christmas, there’s going to be this kind of reaction from a small minority of fandom. We’re not enough of a presence to ask for and honestly expect change, but it would be nice to have people take us seriously when we explain just what rubs us wrong about the way fandom demands we ignore the basic nature of these exchanges.
I know I’m opening myself for some potential nastiness here, because the majority of fandom has spoken and it’s pretty clear that for whatever reasons of their own, people don’t want to listen. As always, I welcome strong dissent, but if you come in with personal attacks or serious anti-Semitism, the thread will be frozen and you’ll be banned immediately.
p.s. I am not remotely speaking for All Jews of Fandom here. I've run into a ton of them who don't really care that much, but I've also run into a ton who care a lot and feel like they can't say anything without a very nasty reception. This post deals with them and me. There is no such thing as the one Jew and their opinions that must stand for all. But there's enough of a consensus that I think it's time to speak up, no matter what the consequences.
ETA: I've had a few people ask, so just to clarify, by "Sesas", I mean all of
the Secret Santa ficathons.
ETA2 (10-12): I see that I was just linked on metafandom, and while I'm still very interested to hear what people have to say, after my day yesterday where one friend was called a kike and I was blasted outright with an antisemitic lecture, I'm probably going to be a bit slower with my replies, mainly because I'm extremely full of rage and hurt right now and don't want to say the wrong thing to somebody who doesn't deserve it. I also don't want to gloss over some of the really thought-provoking and wonderful comments I've received, so yeah, it's gonna take a bit more time.
This all went real ugly, real fast, people. I don't even know what to say about why. We're we too *pushy*? Too *whiny*? Too JEWISH? Was it really *that* dangerous to the welfare of everybody else that we dared to speak up about something that upset us? About a fannish *Christmas exchange*? Well that's too fucking bad, because I'm here and my friends are here, and this isn't something that's just going to go away.
But it’s years later now, and I keep on seeing the same thing - the same reactions and judgments, and general ignorance about just why it is some of us have issues with the constant insistence that Sesas are all-inclusive.
This isn't about mamadeb's post (which I didn't agree with, and i think weakened the general argument). It is partially about both the reaction to that post and the reaction I've seen on posts that have spun-off from the original. The reaction to the original post wasn't anti-semitic per se, but it sure as hell was hostile in the extreme, and left me (and many others) feeling very uncomfortable.
Comments I’ve seen today:
”(And don't even get me started about title complaints. It's a line from a song sung around the winter holidays in the English-speaking world that implies an exchange of "treasure" - good fics for obscure fandoms. It's completely appropriate and not meant to be exclusive.)”
”Normally I would totally agree "yes, make a fuss if something is by it's nature exclusive in an offensive way", but in this case the name of the thing doesn't exclude anyone. It doesn't have anything to do with the theme of the fic exchange, even - you can write about anything you like, essentially. The title doesn't stop her from participating and doesn't require that she pretend to be Christian or anything like that.”
”...not this shit again. I like the holidays. I get a big-ass tree in my house, I get to decorate it, and I get to light candles like a pyro and there's music and presents? What's wrong with that?
Some people are just looking for things to be offended about.”
”-Uhm, just curious, does anyone know why mamadeb has an issue with the term "Yuletide"? (No sarcasm, I really do want to know.)
-Not Jewish enough?
- I will use CHARTS because I can't quite phrase it right.
Yule = old term meaning midwinter, of pagan and Northern European.
Christians sometimes refer to the time around their BIG HOLIDAY as Yuletide.
Pagans sometimes refer to the time around their BIG HOLIDAY as Yuletide.
Not referring to any specific faith or denomination = nondenominational.
Therefore, Yuletide = nondenominational. It does refer to the traditions of the Northern Europeans, and it does have pagan and Christian connotations, but it's made relatively generic by virtue of its being used generally to mean midwinter.”
”I honestly think Yuletide was used as a title because of the time of year. And it was easy to remember for most people. Not some deep seeded desire to ostracize a large portion of the people they speak to in fandom circles (because there's a wide range of beliefs on LJ).”
”I would suspect it was a false conception about the origin of the word "yule"-- that "yule" = "Christian celebration." But I'm not going to wade in to ask for clarification!”
”Of course, yuletide the fic fest got its name as a take-off on the previously-running Popslash fest, "Don We Now Our Gay Apparel" (does anyone know if that's evern still going?) by stealing another line from the British folk song "Deck the Halls", which, being a loose translation of an ancient Welsh *New Year's* carol that wasn't even associated with Christmas until about a hundred-fifty years ago, doesn't even mention the Christian holiday once and is about as secular as British folk songs get.
...not that any of that's relevant to someone's internet feelings being hurt.”
”Now, that's just silly. National Jews Go to the Movies Day is one of the most important and sacred days of the year.”
”For me, the reason that strikes me as hypocritical is because she's decided to be offended about a fanfiction thing that has, AFAIK *no trappings of any religious overtones* except the *name*, sort of. And the name isn't "Anyone Who Doesn't Celebrate Christmas Is Going To Hell, Rar," it's Yuletide*. It just looks like she's bound and determined to be offended by *something, because apparently she's not meeting her wank quota.
It's that she's acting like a *name* is oppressive. It is a name. It is not implying that she's a bad person for not celebrating the holiday. No one is even making her sign up for the thing. It's kind of be like showing up at a mall where they have Santa and complaining that they don't have Hannukah Harry there, too.”
“I'm honestly a bit disappointed she didn't go with the Jewish guilt method, now that I think about it. ‘Oh, that's all right, I'll just find another rare fandoms festival, you don't have to worry about how it looks like you're intentionally oppressing me, I'm used to it...’”
“Yule is Winter Solstice. While the term has been co-opted by Christians to overwrite pre-existing European celebrations ... Yule is still a solstice celebration, a holiday to mark the return the light. Which is pretty common in most Northern Hemisphere cultures. Yuletide simply means -- season of the winter solstice.
It also takes place in a time of gift-giving (livening up the drab days of winter!), and these stories, and the moderators' efforts, are a gift.”
As for myself and the post I made a few years ago, I was told in all seriousness that a exchange with the title “Don We Now Our Gay Apparal” and the tagline, “the best present you’ll find under your non-denominational holiday tree”, using the word “Santa” and going live on Christmas Eve, was all-inclusive and I taking things way too seriously and ruining it for everybody.
I don't have a holiday tree. I don't get presents from Santa. I don't sing Christmas Carols, I don't celebrate a thing on Christmas day, and a lot of the time, my "winter holiday" is finished weeks before Christmas. Let's not pretend, folks.
I’m going to repost a (slightly edited) comment I made earlier tonight, because it sums up what I think everybody is missing here.
” I think yuletide (and other sesas) are lovely ideas. It helps celebrate a holiday the dominant part of fandom celebrates and does so with joy and giving and happiness. Plus, I get to read tons of new stories.
All most of us are asking for is some acknowledgment that when a fic exchange takes place over Christmas, co-opts symbols used for Christmas, and goes live on Christmas, that people agree that it's Christmas-based. All we want to hear is, ‘it's true and that sucks for you, but we're trying our best to not make you feel left out; I'm sorry if you do, but that’s the way it is’ Because that is the way it is.
Instead, what we tend to get is mocking at the best, claims of playing the race card and screaming oppression, and accusations of trying to destroy everybody's holiday squee. That's what drives me (and many others) nuts.”
It’s not so crazy to ask for validation when you express your feelings. Nobody is honestly expecting Sesas to change, and why should they? Although, I might say, if naming the ficathon "yuletide" really is about the solstice, why not go live on the solstice instead of on Christmas, therefore making it something that can appeal to almost everybody, because it's a major day everywhere, yes? Whether your days get longer or shorter, it celebrates a change in seasons and attitudes and a way of looking at the world in a new light. Why does it have to go live on Christmas? A billion other ficathons do so already. Why not make this one different?
Because the fact of the matter is, as long as Sesas will continue to revolve around Christmas, there’s going to be this kind of reaction from a small minority of fandom. We’re not enough of a presence to ask for and honestly expect change, but it would be nice to have people take us seriously when we explain just what rubs us wrong about the way fandom demands we ignore the basic nature of these exchanges.
I know I’m opening myself for some potential nastiness here, because the majority of fandom has spoken and it’s pretty clear that for whatever reasons of their own, people don’t want to listen. As always, I welcome strong dissent, but if you come in with personal attacks or serious anti-Semitism, the thread will be frozen and you’ll be banned immediately.
p.s. I am not remotely speaking for All Jews of Fandom here. I've run into a ton of them who don't really care that much, but I've also run into a ton who care a lot and feel like they can't say anything without a very nasty reception. This post deals with them and me. There is no such thing as the one Jew and their opinions that must stand for all. But there's enough of a consensus that I think it's time to speak up, no matter what the consequences.
ETA: I've had a few people ask, so just to clarify, by "Sesas", I mean all of
the Secret Santa ficathons.
ETA2 (10-12): I see that I was just linked on metafandom, and while I'm still very interested to hear what people have to say, after my day yesterday where one friend was called a kike and I was blasted outright with an antisemitic lecture, I'm probably going to be a bit slower with my replies, mainly because I'm extremely full of rage and hurt right now and don't want to say the wrong thing to somebody who doesn't deserve it. I also don't want to gloss over some of the really thought-provoking and wonderful comments I've received, so yeah, it's gonna take a bit more time.
This all went real ugly, real fast, people. I don't even know what to say about why. We're we too *pushy*? Too *whiny*? Too JEWISH? Was it really *that* dangerous to the welfare of everybody else that we dared to speak up about something that upset us? About a fannish *Christmas exchange*? Well that's too fucking bad, because I'm here and my friends are here, and this isn't something that's just going to go away.