links a billion
Time for a roundup of links! These are all posts dealing with the same topic I posted about yesterday - the disturbing comments left both in mamadeb's journal and on Fandom Wank, and fandom's reactions to the realities of what both Yuletide and other Secret Santa ficathons truly stand for.
As always, pretty much everybody else said it better than me, so go and read!
kita leads off a discussion about fandom's frustrating response.
The correct response (once more, for all those who missed it in the last round of Minorities in Fandom, They Exist!) to "this thing going on here marginilizes me and kind of makes me feel icky, maybe next time can we do it differently?" is NOT: ZOMG WE ARE NOT RACIST YOU ARE OVERSENSITIVE AND ALSO YOU HAVE STUPID HAIR!
skywardprodigal asks why we can't recognize the obvious.
"Hey, I feel left out. Maybe I've got a reason?" Is not an attack.
ladycat clarifies just what it was about merryish's hostile response to the original post that made so many Jews uncomfortable and defensive.
The response comment came in banging out in anger, right out of the gate, instantly putting not only Deb, but all Jews on the defense by the use of “conspiracy.” By stating that there was “enough, legitimate, hurtful prejudice in the world without pointing fingers,” this implied that complaints of ignorance (willful or not) were not “legitimate” and that Jews (in this instance) should just keep their mouth shut. Whether this was personal or religion-wide anger, there was precious little way for me to parse that out, and as a Jew, that instantly got my back up. In fact, it’ll get most Jews’ backs up.
mayatawi offers her perspective as a Muslim who also celebrates Christmas in a secular way I'll be honest, while the post itself is thought-provoking, and it's awesome to see a viewpoint from somebody who isn't Jewish *or* Christian, some of the comments she received make me uncomfortable. But I still think it's very worth a read.
ETA: The comments are starting to turn into downright hostile, so read at your own risk. Personally, I'm getting too pissed to follow the threads anymore.
Christmas is simply the most common, easily accessible frame of reference for a holiday-based fic exchange. Yuletide is a Christmas fic exchange; that doesn't mean it's a Christian fic exchange. I've come to consider-- rightly or wrongly-- Christmas in the same light as many people consider marriage nowadays, in the midst of the gay marriage debate. For some people, marriage is a strictly religious issue; for others it's strictly secular; and for still others, it's a mixture of the two. I don't see why both concepts can't coexist, or maybe it's better to say why they shouldn't coexist. Some people are going to embrace the religious aspect of the holidays. Some are just going to take it as an excuse to give and receive shiny things.
I would venture to be so bold as to say that Yuletide is of the "shiny things" school of thought.
fox1013 offers her perspective as a Jew who loves Christmas The first half of the post deals solely with race and gender representation in Heroes, so if that's your kind of thing, enjoy, but if you'd rather just read the Christmas stuff, you're gonna need to scroll down.
It's hard, for me, because I see all sides in this. I don't think anything that was done was intentionally anti-Semitic. I don't believe that if anyone had realized it could be even construed as anti-Semitic, it would have even been an issue, because it would have immediately been changed. For me, personally, I did not find anything problematic in it- but I also spend Friday nights out with friends or fucking around online and Saturdays at work. And I also requested Christmas-themed fic for Yuletide the past few years. So there's that. But I do believe that people being hurt and feeling ignored by this is a valid reaction, and people outright dismissing that can be problematic. There can't be discussion if everything is dichotomized. It's like we're in an improv group, and people keep answering "No" instead of "Yes, and" or "Yes, but". Why, exactly, do so many people think that they- that we- can invalidate other people's feelings just because we don't SHARE them?
rydra-wong opens up discussion about fandom's overreaction.
Dear fandom:
Regardless of the original issue, when your response is to rant about those crazy oversensitive minorities with chips on their shoulders who are just looking for something to be offended by in order to guilt-trip you and harsh your squee --
Still not cool, kthnx.
untrue-accounts makes an *excellent* post about the mocking and outright anti-Semitism deb's post led to (calling "Sukkot" - one of the Jewish High Holydays - "Suck it" and expecting everybody to think that was cute and funny), the realisticness of the connection of Yuletide and Christianity and the way fandom denies that, and the general privilege the Christian-based members of fandom are able to enjoy, even if they refuse to admit to it.
I am going to be very explicit about this: I'm not just talking about this ficathon. I'm not asking for the name "Yuletide" to be changed. I think that would be a huge headache, to begin with, and at this point I even have positive associations with the name, because of my happy involvement with the challenge. But I *am* saying that "Yuletide"--whether in reference to this challenge or *in general*--is not nondenominational. It is not religiously neutral. It is not broadly inclusive.
And really, the important part of that last paragraph for me is the "in general." This is not about an attitude specific to fandom. This is about an attitude in the cultures from which Western media fans come.
And the amount of resistance to this concept--that Christianity is not everyone's default and *it is not a neutral position*--is what disturbs me in many responses.
popfantastic rocks the house
As these principles clearly demonstrate, I am never responsible for saying anything which might be construed as insensitive or offensive, no matter how many times I have said the same thing before and been told it might be construed as insensitive or offensive. Hysterical accusations of offense-giving must be properly contained with reassurances that it's not my job to worry about the offendee and explanations that it is, in fact, the offendee's failure to understand that I was prevented by the offendee's own anger from understanding him, her, or hir and that I can neither apologize nor take steps to prevent offense in the future which demonstrates unfathomable insensitivity to my needs. As all of my friends -- including the black one -- will tell you, I'm a highly tolerant person. Obviously, the fault lies elsewhere.
As for me, I'm getting a little sick of the fact that in the last month alone, I've posted about this topic *three times*. Turning over the rock of fandom and finding the rotting maggots underneath is never pleasant, and I'm starting to get a little sick of it.
I said to somebody else that there's a difference between the people who are mocking deb because she was *silly* and the people who are mocking deb because she's *Jewish*. It's a pretty defined line, and it's not really that hard to keep yourself from stepping over it. Next time you're ready to mock and belittle and dismiss, how about you take a few seconds first and think about what it is you're *really* saying?
ETA (also posted on my first post): I see that I was just linked on metafandom, and while I'm still very interested to hear what people have to say, after my day yesterday where one friend was called a kike and I was blasted outright with an antisemitic lecture, I'm probably going to be a bit slower with my replies, mainly because I'm extremely full of rage and hurt right now and don't want to say the wrong thing to somebody who doesn't deserve it. I also don't want to gloss over some of the really thought-provoking and wonderful comments I've received, so yeah, it's gonna take a bit more time.
This all went real ugly, real fast, people. I don't even know what to say about why. We're we too *pushy*? Too *whiny*? Too JEWISH? Was it really *that* dangerous to the welfare of everybody else that we dared to speak up about something that upset us? About a fannish *Christmas exchange*? Well that's too fucking bad, because I'm here and my friends are here, and this isn't something that's just going to go away.
ETA The Third: I've seen a lot of links straight to this post over the last few days, and so I just want to reiterate what I said earlier.
I am not remotely speaking for All Jews of Fandom here. I've run into a ton of them who don't really care that much, but I've also run into a ton who care a lot and feel like they can't say anything without a very nasty reception. This post deals with them and me. There is no such thing as the one Jew and their opinions that must stand for all. But there's enough of a consensus that I think it's time to speak up, no matter what the consequences.
It's fine that a lot of Jews in fandom don't feel the way I do and think that fandom is a positive experience for them and that bringing up antisemitism as a topic is detrimental as a whole. But that's not how I feel and I continue to believe that this is a topic that needs to be addressed, because I personally think that ignoring it is ignoring a whole lot of ugliness that's still there, even if you don't want it to be.
Also (and this is unrelated), if you honestly think my icon is anti-Christian and therefore I'm not worth listening to? Do some research first, because that's probably the most hilarious thing that's come out of all of this.
ETA The *Fourth*: It's a week later now, and a ton of new posts have gone up. I've made a second post of links, which you can find here. I've also included some handy bullet points, which I'm going to paste, in case you've decided this is the only entry of mine you want to read, before you start talking about what I'm saying.
As for me, since I've been seeing a lot of reactions out there misinterpreting things I've said, I'm going to put it into easy bullet points.
- As a Jew, I don't celebrate Christmas. I never will.
- Many Jews celebrate Christmas and that's just fine with me.
- I don't have an issue with Yuletide and Sesa exchanges existing. I don't expect them to change and I'm not *asking* them to change. I'm not asking for them to incorporate other religions or cultures, or change their wording, or go live on different days, or not exist at all. All that I am asking is that people admit to the *blatant fact that they are Christian-based*. That's it. That's literally all I want and I honestly don't understand why so many people have a problem with the honest truth of that statement. It doesn't change who you are and how you choose to celebrate or not celebrate Christmas, or how you choose to participate or not participate in the exchanges. It doesn't mean the world will end.
- I don't agree with mamadeb's original post, but I think that it was mostly a personal whine in her personal journal, made after an exhausting month.
- I'm not remotely putting myself out there as the spokesperson for all Jews, and "expecting people to fall into lockstep" behind me. God, not even *close*. In fact, for as many Jews as I've seen commenting and agreeing with me, I've seen just as many commenting and disagreeing with me.
- While I think it's just fine that so many Jews in fandom don't share my perspective, think this is an issue that is important, or wish I'd just shut up, it's not going to change the way that I feel about all of this, and why it's important to me. Just as I'm not asking everybody else to define their Judaism and participation in fandom in the same terms as mine, I'd like for them to show the same consideration to me and everybody else who has spoke up, saying the same things.
- Basically, if you want to debate the things I've been saying, please *actually read them first*.
As always, pretty much everybody else said it better than me, so go and read!
kita leads off a discussion about fandom's frustrating response.
The correct response (once more, for all those who missed it in the last round of Minorities in Fandom, They Exist!) to "this thing going on here marginilizes me and kind of makes me feel icky, maybe next time can we do it differently?" is NOT: ZOMG WE ARE NOT RACIST YOU ARE OVERSENSITIVE AND ALSO YOU HAVE STUPID HAIR!
skywardprodigal asks why we can't recognize the obvious.
"Hey, I feel left out. Maybe I've got a reason?" Is not an attack.
ladycat clarifies just what it was about merryish's hostile response to the original post that made so many Jews uncomfortable and defensive.
The response comment came in banging out in anger, right out of the gate, instantly putting not only Deb, but all Jews on the defense by the use of “conspiracy.” By stating that there was “enough, legitimate, hurtful prejudice in the world without pointing fingers,” this implied that complaints of ignorance (willful or not) were not “legitimate” and that Jews (in this instance) should just keep their mouth shut. Whether this was personal or religion-wide anger, there was precious little way for me to parse that out, and as a Jew, that instantly got my back up. In fact, it’ll get most Jews’ backs up.
mayatawi offers her perspective as a Muslim who also celebrates Christmas in a secular way I'll be honest, while the post itself is thought-provoking, and it's awesome to see a viewpoint from somebody who isn't Jewish *or* Christian, some of the comments she received make me uncomfortable. But I still think it's very worth a read.
ETA: The comments are starting to turn into downright hostile, so read at your own risk. Personally, I'm getting too pissed to follow the threads anymore.
Christmas is simply the most common, easily accessible frame of reference for a holiday-based fic exchange. Yuletide is a Christmas fic exchange; that doesn't mean it's a Christian fic exchange. I've come to consider-- rightly or wrongly-- Christmas in the same light as many people consider marriage nowadays, in the midst of the gay marriage debate. For some people, marriage is a strictly religious issue; for others it's strictly secular; and for still others, it's a mixture of the two. I don't see why both concepts can't coexist, or maybe it's better to say why they shouldn't coexist. Some people are going to embrace the religious aspect of the holidays. Some are just going to take it as an excuse to give and receive shiny things.
I would venture to be so bold as to say that Yuletide is of the "shiny things" school of thought.
fox1013 offers her perspective as a Jew who loves Christmas The first half of the post deals solely with race and gender representation in Heroes, so if that's your kind of thing, enjoy, but if you'd rather just read the Christmas stuff, you're gonna need to scroll down.
It's hard, for me, because I see all sides in this. I don't think anything that was done was intentionally anti-Semitic. I don't believe that if anyone had realized it could be even construed as anti-Semitic, it would have even been an issue, because it would have immediately been changed. For me, personally, I did not find anything problematic in it- but I also spend Friday nights out with friends or fucking around online and Saturdays at work. And I also requested Christmas-themed fic for Yuletide the past few years. So there's that. But I do believe that people being hurt and feeling ignored by this is a valid reaction, and people outright dismissing that can be problematic. There can't be discussion if everything is dichotomized. It's like we're in an improv group, and people keep answering "No" instead of "Yes, and" or "Yes, but". Why, exactly, do so many people think that they- that we- can invalidate other people's feelings just because we don't SHARE them?
rydra-wong opens up discussion about fandom's overreaction.
Dear fandom:
Regardless of the original issue, when your response is to rant about those crazy oversensitive minorities with chips on their shoulders who are just looking for something to be offended by in order to guilt-trip you and harsh your squee --
Still not cool, kthnx.
untrue-accounts makes an *excellent* post about the mocking and outright anti-Semitism deb's post led to (calling "Sukkot" - one of the Jewish High Holydays - "Suck it" and expecting everybody to think that was cute and funny), the realisticness of the connection of Yuletide and Christianity and the way fandom denies that, and the general privilege the Christian-based members of fandom are able to enjoy, even if they refuse to admit to it.
I am going to be very explicit about this: I'm not just talking about this ficathon. I'm not asking for the name "Yuletide" to be changed. I think that would be a huge headache, to begin with, and at this point I even have positive associations with the name, because of my happy involvement with the challenge. But I *am* saying that "Yuletide"--whether in reference to this challenge or *in general*--is not nondenominational. It is not religiously neutral. It is not broadly inclusive.
And really, the important part of that last paragraph for me is the "in general." This is not about an attitude specific to fandom. This is about an attitude in the cultures from which Western media fans come.
And the amount of resistance to this concept--that Christianity is not everyone's default and *it is not a neutral position*--is what disturbs me in many responses.
popfantastic rocks the house
As these principles clearly demonstrate, I am never responsible for saying anything which might be construed as insensitive or offensive, no matter how many times I have said the same thing before and been told it might be construed as insensitive or offensive. Hysterical accusations of offense-giving must be properly contained with reassurances that it's not my job to worry about the offendee and explanations that it is, in fact, the offendee's failure to understand that I was prevented by the offendee's own anger from understanding him, her, or hir and that I can neither apologize nor take steps to prevent offense in the future which demonstrates unfathomable insensitivity to my needs. As all of my friends -- including the black one -- will tell you, I'm a highly tolerant person. Obviously, the fault lies elsewhere.
As for me, I'm getting a little sick of the fact that in the last month alone, I've posted about this topic *three times*. Turning over the rock of fandom and finding the rotting maggots underneath is never pleasant, and I'm starting to get a little sick of it.
I said to somebody else that there's a difference between the people who are mocking deb because she was *silly* and the people who are mocking deb because she's *Jewish*. It's a pretty defined line, and it's not really that hard to keep yourself from stepping over it. Next time you're ready to mock and belittle and dismiss, how about you take a few seconds first and think about what it is you're *really* saying?
ETA (also posted on my first post): I see that I was just linked on metafandom, and while I'm still very interested to hear what people have to say, after my day yesterday where one friend was called a kike and I was blasted outright with an antisemitic lecture, I'm probably going to be a bit slower with my replies, mainly because I'm extremely full of rage and hurt right now and don't want to say the wrong thing to somebody who doesn't deserve it. I also don't want to gloss over some of the really thought-provoking and wonderful comments I've received, so yeah, it's gonna take a bit more time.
This all went real ugly, real fast, people. I don't even know what to say about why. We're we too *pushy*? Too *whiny*? Too JEWISH? Was it really *that* dangerous to the welfare of everybody else that we dared to speak up about something that upset us? About a fannish *Christmas exchange*? Well that's too fucking bad, because I'm here and my friends are here, and this isn't something that's just going to go away.
ETA The Third: I've seen a lot of links straight to this post over the last few days, and so I just want to reiterate what I said earlier.
I am not remotely speaking for All Jews of Fandom here. I've run into a ton of them who don't really care that much, but I've also run into a ton who care a lot and feel like they can't say anything without a very nasty reception. This post deals with them and me. There is no such thing as the one Jew and their opinions that must stand for all. But there's enough of a consensus that I think it's time to speak up, no matter what the consequences.
It's fine that a lot of Jews in fandom don't feel the way I do and think that fandom is a positive experience for them and that bringing up antisemitism as a topic is detrimental as a whole. But that's not how I feel and I continue to believe that this is a topic that needs to be addressed, because I personally think that ignoring it is ignoring a whole lot of ugliness that's still there, even if you don't want it to be.
Also (and this is unrelated), if you honestly think my icon is anti-Christian and therefore I'm not worth listening to? Do some research first, because that's probably the most hilarious thing that's come out of all of this.
ETA The *Fourth*: It's a week later now, and a ton of new posts have gone up. I've made a second post of links, which you can find here. I've also included some handy bullet points, which I'm going to paste, in case you've decided this is the only entry of mine you want to read, before you start talking about what I'm saying.
As for me, since I've been seeing a lot of reactions out there misinterpreting things I've said, I'm going to put it into easy bullet points.
- As a Jew, I don't celebrate Christmas. I never will.
- Many Jews celebrate Christmas and that's just fine with me.
- I don't have an issue with Yuletide and Sesa exchanges existing. I don't expect them to change and I'm not *asking* them to change. I'm not asking for them to incorporate other religions or cultures, or change their wording, or go live on different days, or not exist at all. All that I am asking is that people admit to the *blatant fact that they are Christian-based*. That's it. That's literally all I want and I honestly don't understand why so many people have a problem with the honest truth of that statement. It doesn't change who you are and how you choose to celebrate or not celebrate Christmas, or how you choose to participate or not participate in the exchanges. It doesn't mean the world will end.
- I don't agree with mamadeb's original post, but I think that it was mostly a personal whine in her personal journal, made after an exhausting month.
- I'm not remotely putting myself out there as the spokesperson for all Jews, and "expecting people to fall into lockstep" behind me. God, not even *close*. In fact, for as many Jews as I've seen commenting and agreeing with me, I've seen just as many commenting and disagreeing with me.
- While I think it's just fine that so many Jews in fandom don't share my perspective, think this is an issue that is important, or wish I'd just shut up, it's not going to change the way that I feel about all of this, and why it's important to me. Just as I'm not asking everybody else to define their Judaism and participation in fandom in the same terms as mine, I'd like for them to show the same consideration to me and everybody else who has spoke up, saying the same things.
- Basically, if you want to debate the things I've been saying, please *actually read them first*.