tnh: the fail years
Sooo, everybody out there who's been leaping to the defense of tnh, aka Theresa Neilsen Hayden; eveybody who keeps on insisting what a good and sweet and nice and fair and open-minded and ethical person she is and she's just been stressed and it's not right for people to attack her? Let's take a little look at some *actual evidence*.
Like all of the other cowards before her, tnh locked her original post (although, to be fair, not everybody left it at locking. Some of them deleted. Some went a step further and deleted their journals. For some, even *that* wasn't enough, and they not only deleted their journals, they went back into *other* journals and deleted every single comment they'd made to try to cover their tracks). But then she made a new post, repeating a comment she'd left in the now-locked post.
"Hi, Womzilla. Don't bother, unless you find it rewarding for its own sake. Ginnytonnick's been arguing in bad faith from the start. So have a lot of the other participants you've never met in the flesh.
Conversations get like that when you have an inappropriate ratio of ostensible personalities to points of origin.
Have I mentioned that the entity that's playing identity-theft games with Will Shetterly was also doing it in Boing Boing clear back in July? I wondered about it at the time. It did some un-Will-like things during its short lifespan. If the impersonation had gone on longer, we might have spotted its fraudulence earlier.
I don't know whether these two phenomena are connected. If they are, we're looking at someone who can willfully trash Emma Bull at the same time that they're doing a passable spoof of her husband. We're also looking at someone who's been using a genuinely important issue as a device for trolling Tempest and Nora and the rest. Lord knows, the SF community has needed to have some serious discussions of race and racism, but this isn't it. This is bullshit and fake identity politics. Maybe we can have a real discussion later. Right now, we're just being gamed.
For now, I've been letting the trolls and sockpuppets romp while the site logs IP addresses. In just a minute I'm going to lock the place down, finish collecting telltales, and delete everything that's not worth the electrons."
In other words: people disagreeing with tnh = bad faith. People politely and logically trying to enter into a discussion = being deleted and banned. spiralsheep? She was out of there immediately. Deleted right off the bat. However, darkerblogistan aka Luke Jackson - a troll well known for leaving comments aimed toward POC such as this one (this specific one was not left in tnh's lj, because, just like many before her, she locked down to try to hide evidence) is still allowed in her journal and in fact is posting in her new posts. Apparently, when tnh said she was tracking IPs and deleting people arguing in "bad faith", what she *really* meant was, "I'm deleting anybody with brains who disagrees with me, because they might prove I am not Queen of the Mountain High. Feel free to insult dark-skinned people all you like though! That's *totally* different!"
Also, remember the "bad faith" excuse tnh gave right up there? Apparently, while it's bad faith for somebody to disagree with her and her friends, it's *not* bad faith to allow those same friends to *continue replying to somebody who can't respond themselves, because the post has been locked and they're not allowed in*. That's not bad faith at all!
Anyway, according to a lot of tnh defenders, all of this is old news. She was *upset*. Somebody she cared about had been *attacked*. They were *hurting*. As always, these selfsame defenders refused to acknowledge that just because poor poor tnh and pnh were crying into their Wheaties, didn't mean that hadn't *done something wrong* and caused huge amounts of pain. They also refused to take even one second to think about why they were trying to hard to defend tnh and pnh's tone while simultaneously attacking every single POC who had appeared thus far as "too angry" and in one case "a pack" (of what, I wonder?).
Sorry, but the "you're blaming her for actions in the past and she was worked up and hurting" excuse is moot now, because tnh is back! Do you think she's learned anything? Do you think she's calmed down? Do you think there's even a tiny tiny chance that she's willing to listen to anybody who isn't kissing her ass, no matter how much they might like her or respect her? If you've said yes to any of the above, it's clearly your first day on the internet!
As of right now, tnh is all over her post, responding to friends, deleting "enemies" and of course, darkerblogistan is still allowed there as well.
tnh tells a friend right off the bat that she's calmer now and has slowed down and taken some time to think. Given that, I think we can look at her words objectively - after all, she's the one who says she's taken the time to calm down and has thought about what she's saying!
We start small, with raincitygirl making a comment in good faith (I'm going to be reproducing all comments here, because tnh has a clear record of trying to delete and hide evidence of her words and actions.
Well thank heavens for that. I'm not sure how to say this without sounding offensive or hostile, but that post you made did not show you in your best light. Not even remotely. To the point where I and some other friends of mine were thinking about not buying Tor books because that thread made it sound like you were planning to use your position as an editor to make life difficult for wannabe writers who've disagreed with you or your husband on this issue. Yeah, I know that's not what you MEANT, and obviously you were upset when you wrote the post. But when a critical mass of people are interpreting something you wrote in a certain way, that could be considered a sign that the confusion is coming from unintentionally ambiguous text, not faulty reader interpretation of clear text. Maybe you'll find some cool-down time helpful. There are an awful lot of non-trolls who've been following this issue for the past few weeks, and the post you deleted stunned quite a few of us. Given my high opinion of you from reading Making Light. I'd be glad for this to have been a stress-induced blip.
and
I don't know for sure, but I'd like to give her the benefit of the doubt. Give tnh the opportunity to calm down, realise she screwed up in the heat of the moment (as we all sometimes do), and clarify/retract those parts of the post which so shocked me. Call me naive, but I generally like to think the best of people until circumstances force me to re-evaluate. At this point tnh is coasting on my previously-acquired goodwill from her various posts at Making Light. Coasting doesn't (and shouldn't) last forever, but climbdowns, while awkward, are a heck of a lot better than the alternative.
tnh didn't ask for my advice, but if she did, I'd say to keep the post locked until she's calm enough to see why it had so many people shocked and up in arms.
Four days later, tnh has calmed down and thought about things enough to say:
Raincitygirl --
Be a dear and put a sock in it, will you? Thanks!
"Well thank heavens for that. I'm not sure how to say this without sounding offensive or hostile, but ..."
The "but" is, as ever, the threshhold before which one ought to stop.
If the sock doesn't do the trick, there are catalogues that will sell you very large corks.
Run along, now.
But that's just the lead in! A bit further down, we get this *real* winner. Somebody (I'm not sure who, because, again, tnh deleted their comment, and while I did read the comment, I don't remember the name) disagrees with tnh and gives the standard "you did something wrong and should think about the damage you've caused" comment. talheres said:
I don’t care if you log my IP or get any info on me, it’s not like I ever see myself published in a genre publishing house anyway. Some advice though-
You really, really blew it, and if you care for what’s left of your reputation, it’s time to admit that you made a very grave mistake, a very public one at that. I strongly suggest that you swallow your pride, admit that you were in error for lashing out like this, and shut up and stop being so defensive and actually listen to what these people have to say. ...
The time for discussion is now. The only person playing you is you. It may be uncomfortable at first even admitting that you do have your own blinders on at first (and I have, much to my dislike, have discovered that I have been more oblivious to my own white privileges than I previously realized. I can’t say it makes me comfortable dealing with reality, but that’s better than self-imposed ignorance), but it has to be done. Even if you didn’t mean to sound threatening to other people, the problem is is that you do, and seemingly little regret. You have to own up it.
Note here I'm not trying to sound cruel. I enjoy reading the blog Making Light. I just do not enjoy watching others continue to dig their own holes like this. It would just be a shame to see more people shoot themselves in the foot like this, even with the trainwreckish entertainment value and my intention to by more corn kernels tomorrow.
At the time, feorag replied with:
"My, you're a malevolent little cunt, aren't you?
I'm not even going to give you an opportunity to maliciously misinterpret my words - you are an obnoxious troll who gets joy out of deliberately twisting others' words and then claiming they said what you wanted to say, rather than what they did. You hold out your (plastic kids' model kit) bleeding heart for all to see, claiming it's the real thing, whilst demonstrating a total lack of any shred of basic humanity. I doubt you are Aspergers' or anything like that - you're just a cunt, and not in the sense of a rather entertaining part of the body."
Now, yes, this was days ago. tnh wasn't around and responding at that time. Everybody - including people who didn't like tnh to begin with - assumed the comment would be deleted when she got back, or at least the commenter would be called on their words. After all, back in the last post. tnh invalidated everything ktempest had tried to say to her because ktempest used the phrase "wounded animal mode" - which was apparently such a gendered and sexist thing to say that it nullified her entire comment and ended all discussion. Therefore, it stands to reason that a good and ethical person - a *fair* person - wouldn't allow gendered and sexist insults in her journal aimed at *anyone*. Right?
Not so much.
Feorag, pray allow me to heap roses at your feet. Your response is the only thing that could make me regret zapping that instantiation. Lest the comment that prompted yours be lost to the ages, I've pasted a ROT-13'd copy of it at the bottom of this message.
It's quite the little production: the same set of stupid, dishonest arguments, the same insistence that we have to pay attention to him-or-her, and the same voice that we've been hearing over and over again.
Given who's been attacked and the form the attacks have taken, I'm guessing it's a failed writer. If so, I wish they'd get it through their head that Patrick wasn't the one who rejected them. There's a very slight chance that I did it, and a very large chance that it was an intern, an editorial assistant, or junior staff from another department who were helping out at a slushkill.
Yes, you read it right. After *days* of calming down and taking some time to think, tnh is not only okay with somebody disagreeing with her being called a cunt, it's something to be *praised*. I'm not even going to touch the failed writer part - except to say that tnh sure has built up quite the image of herself in her head. I wonder if she's ever going to realize that most people who disagree with her aren't writers and don't *care* who she is, apart from the part where is is a *total asshole on the internet*.
What matters here is that tnh's words do not match her actions. She describes people disagreeing with her as "arguing in bad faith" - while still allowing her friends to reply nastily to somebody who has been silenced and cannot defend themselves. She talks about moderating comments and tracking IPs, which in her world, means that comments disagreeing with her are deleted while racist trolls are allowed to stay. She dismisses people entirely for using what she considers to be a gendered phrase that nullifies their entire discussion (although apparently "nithing" and "draggle-tailed loudmouths" are still all good in her book!) - and then not only allows somebody to be called a cunt, she "heaps roses" at their feet. She seems to be completely convinced that all of the people disagreeing with her are one giant sockpuppet who isn't even involved in the SF community and has some sort of failed writer grudge.
Given that tnh apparently moderates for a living, and seems to be quite involved in the writing world (since she cannot keep herself from bragging about how she's clearly only disliked by failed writers - and angry POC clinging to their anonymity so they can troll her, of course), I don't think it's an unsafe assumption to say she is a person who knows her way around moderating a discussion, as well as knowing the power of the written word and how to wield said power. Therefore, adding in the fact that her newest comments have come four days after her initial outburst - more than enough time for her to calm down, I can only assume that the person here acting in "bad faith" is tnh.
So, yeah, all of you tnh apologists? How about you stop trying so hard to defend a person who clearly doesn't need any of your help, and instead, take a few minutes to think *just about what she's been doing here*. As for you, tnh...wow. A piece of work like you doesn't come around very often.
The motto of this story? You can lead a tnh to calm and thoughtful discussion where multiple points of view are offered and people disagree with each other and yet still respect each other's words, but you can't make her grow the fuck up and act like an adult.
Final note: I'm going to bed in a bit, and will be screening all comments from people I don't have friended while I sleep. As long as you don't show up with racist/sexist/etc. insults, I'll be letting your comment through, no matter how much you disagree with me. If you attempt to derail the conversation and refuse to acknowledge said derailing, I will freeze the thread. As I've said before, all people who've silenced others in their journal are pre-banned from mine until they learn to respect other voices besides their own. Racist trolls are pre-banned too, obviously. Feel free to go and express yourselves over in tnh's journal. I'm sure you'll be very welcome!
Like all of the other cowards before her, tnh locked her original post (although, to be fair, not everybody left it at locking. Some of them deleted. Some went a step further and deleted their journals. For some, even *that* wasn't enough, and they not only deleted their journals, they went back into *other* journals and deleted every single comment they'd made to try to cover their tracks). But then she made a new post, repeating a comment she'd left in the now-locked post.
"Hi, Womzilla. Don't bother, unless you find it rewarding for its own sake. Ginnytonnick's been arguing in bad faith from the start. So have a lot of the other participants you've never met in the flesh.
Conversations get like that when you have an inappropriate ratio of ostensible personalities to points of origin.
Have I mentioned that the entity that's playing identity-theft games with Will Shetterly was also doing it in Boing Boing clear back in July? I wondered about it at the time. It did some un-Will-like things during its short lifespan. If the impersonation had gone on longer, we might have spotted its fraudulence earlier.
I don't know whether these two phenomena are connected. If they are, we're looking at someone who can willfully trash Emma Bull at the same time that they're doing a passable spoof of her husband. We're also looking at someone who's been using a genuinely important issue as a device for trolling Tempest and Nora and the rest. Lord knows, the SF community has needed to have some serious discussions of race and racism, but this isn't it. This is bullshit and fake identity politics. Maybe we can have a real discussion later. Right now, we're just being gamed.
For now, I've been letting the trolls and sockpuppets romp while the site logs IP addresses. In just a minute I'm going to lock the place down, finish collecting telltales, and delete everything that's not worth the electrons."
In other words: people disagreeing with tnh = bad faith. People politely and logically trying to enter into a discussion = being deleted and banned. spiralsheep? She was out of there immediately. Deleted right off the bat. However, darkerblogistan aka Luke Jackson - a troll well known for leaving comments aimed toward POC such as this one (this specific one was not left in tnh's lj, because, just like many before her, she locked down to try to hide evidence) is still allowed in her journal and in fact is posting in her new posts. Apparently, when tnh said she was tracking IPs and deleting people arguing in "bad faith", what she *really* meant was, "I'm deleting anybody with brains who disagrees with me, because they might prove I am not Queen of the Mountain High. Feel free to insult dark-skinned people all you like though! That's *totally* different!"
Also, remember the "bad faith" excuse tnh gave right up there? Apparently, while it's bad faith for somebody to disagree with her and her friends, it's *not* bad faith to allow those same friends to *continue replying to somebody who can't respond themselves, because the post has been locked and they're not allowed in*. That's not bad faith at all!
Anyway, according to a lot of tnh defenders, all of this is old news. She was *upset*. Somebody she cared about had been *attacked*. They were *hurting*. As always, these selfsame defenders refused to acknowledge that just because poor poor tnh and pnh were crying into their Wheaties, didn't mean that hadn't *done something wrong* and caused huge amounts of pain. They also refused to take even one second to think about why they were trying to hard to defend tnh and pnh's tone while simultaneously attacking every single POC who had appeared thus far as "too angry" and in one case "a pack" (of what, I wonder?).
Sorry, but the "you're blaming her for actions in the past and she was worked up and hurting" excuse is moot now, because tnh is back! Do you think she's learned anything? Do you think she's calmed down? Do you think there's even a tiny tiny chance that she's willing to listen to anybody who isn't kissing her ass, no matter how much they might like her or respect her? If you've said yes to any of the above, it's clearly your first day on the internet!
As of right now, tnh is all over her post, responding to friends, deleting "enemies" and of course, darkerblogistan is still allowed there as well.
tnh tells a friend right off the bat that she's calmer now and has slowed down and taken some time to think. Given that, I think we can look at her words objectively - after all, she's the one who says she's taken the time to calm down and has thought about what she's saying!
We start small, with raincitygirl making a comment in good faith (I'm going to be reproducing all comments here, because tnh has a clear record of trying to delete and hide evidence of her words and actions.
Well thank heavens for that. I'm not sure how to say this without sounding offensive or hostile, but that post you made did not show you in your best light. Not even remotely. To the point where I and some other friends of mine were thinking about not buying Tor books because that thread made it sound like you were planning to use your position as an editor to make life difficult for wannabe writers who've disagreed with you or your husband on this issue. Yeah, I know that's not what you MEANT, and obviously you were upset when you wrote the post. But when a critical mass of people are interpreting something you wrote in a certain way, that could be considered a sign that the confusion is coming from unintentionally ambiguous text, not faulty reader interpretation of clear text. Maybe you'll find some cool-down time helpful. There are an awful lot of non-trolls who've been following this issue for the past few weeks, and the post you deleted stunned quite a few of us. Given my high opinion of you from reading Making Light. I'd be glad for this to have been a stress-induced blip.
and
I don't know for sure, but I'd like to give her the benefit of the doubt. Give tnh the opportunity to calm down, realise she screwed up in the heat of the moment (as we all sometimes do), and clarify/retract those parts of the post which so shocked me. Call me naive, but I generally like to think the best of people until circumstances force me to re-evaluate. At this point tnh is coasting on my previously-acquired goodwill from her various posts at Making Light. Coasting doesn't (and shouldn't) last forever, but climbdowns, while awkward, are a heck of a lot better than the alternative.
tnh didn't ask for my advice, but if she did, I'd say to keep the post locked until she's calm enough to see why it had so many people shocked and up in arms.
Four days later, tnh has calmed down and thought about things enough to say:
Raincitygirl --
Be a dear and put a sock in it, will you? Thanks!
"Well thank heavens for that. I'm not sure how to say this without sounding offensive or hostile, but ..."
The "but" is, as ever, the threshhold before which one ought to stop.
If the sock doesn't do the trick, there are catalogues that will sell you very large corks.
Run along, now.
But that's just the lead in! A bit further down, we get this *real* winner. Somebody (I'm not sure who, because, again, tnh deleted their comment, and while I did read the comment, I don't remember the name) disagrees with tnh and gives the standard "you did something wrong and should think about the damage you've caused" comment. talheres said:
I don’t care if you log my IP or get any info on me, it’s not like I ever see myself published in a genre publishing house anyway. Some advice though-
You really, really blew it, and if you care for what’s left of your reputation, it’s time to admit that you made a very grave mistake, a very public one at that. I strongly suggest that you swallow your pride, admit that you were in error for lashing out like this, and shut up and stop being so defensive and actually listen to what these people have to say. ...
The time for discussion is now. The only person playing you is you. It may be uncomfortable at first even admitting that you do have your own blinders on at first (and I have, much to my dislike, have discovered that I have been more oblivious to my own white privileges than I previously realized. I can’t say it makes me comfortable dealing with reality, but that’s better than self-imposed ignorance), but it has to be done. Even if you didn’t mean to sound threatening to other people, the problem is is that you do, and seemingly little regret. You have to own up it.
Note here I'm not trying to sound cruel. I enjoy reading the blog Making Light. I just do not enjoy watching others continue to dig their own holes like this. It would just be a shame to see more people shoot themselves in the foot like this, even with the trainwreckish entertainment value and my intention to by more corn kernels tomorrow.
At the time, feorag replied with:
"My, you're a malevolent little cunt, aren't you?
I'm not even going to give you an opportunity to maliciously misinterpret my words - you are an obnoxious troll who gets joy out of deliberately twisting others' words and then claiming they said what you wanted to say, rather than what they did. You hold out your (plastic kids' model kit) bleeding heart for all to see, claiming it's the real thing, whilst demonstrating a total lack of any shred of basic humanity. I doubt you are Aspergers' or anything like that - you're just a cunt, and not in the sense of a rather entertaining part of the body."
Now, yes, this was days ago. tnh wasn't around and responding at that time. Everybody - including people who didn't like tnh to begin with - assumed the comment would be deleted when she got back, or at least the commenter would be called on their words. After all, back in the last post. tnh invalidated everything ktempest had tried to say to her because ktempest used the phrase "wounded animal mode" - which was apparently such a gendered and sexist thing to say that it nullified her entire comment and ended all discussion. Therefore, it stands to reason that a good and ethical person - a *fair* person - wouldn't allow gendered and sexist insults in her journal aimed at *anyone*. Right?
Not so much.
Feorag, pray allow me to heap roses at your feet. Your response is the only thing that could make me regret zapping that instantiation. Lest the comment that prompted yours be lost to the ages, I've pasted a ROT-13'd copy of it at the bottom of this message.
It's quite the little production: the same set of stupid, dishonest arguments, the same insistence that we have to pay attention to him-or-her, and the same voice that we've been hearing over and over again.
Given who's been attacked and the form the attacks have taken, I'm guessing it's a failed writer. If so, I wish they'd get it through their head that Patrick wasn't the one who rejected them. There's a very slight chance that I did it, and a very large chance that it was an intern, an editorial assistant, or junior staff from another department who were helping out at a slushkill.
Yes, you read it right. After *days* of calming down and taking some time to think, tnh is not only okay with somebody disagreeing with her being called a cunt, it's something to be *praised*. I'm not even going to touch the failed writer part - except to say that tnh sure has built up quite the image of herself in her head. I wonder if she's ever going to realize that most people who disagree with her aren't writers and don't *care* who she is, apart from the part where is is a *total asshole on the internet*.
What matters here is that tnh's words do not match her actions. She describes people disagreeing with her as "arguing in bad faith" - while still allowing her friends to reply nastily to somebody who has been silenced and cannot defend themselves. She talks about moderating comments and tracking IPs, which in her world, means that comments disagreeing with her are deleted while racist trolls are allowed to stay. She dismisses people entirely for using what she considers to be a gendered phrase that nullifies their entire discussion (although apparently "nithing" and "draggle-tailed loudmouths" are still all good in her book!) - and then not only allows somebody to be called a cunt, she "heaps roses" at their feet. She seems to be completely convinced that all of the people disagreeing with her are one giant sockpuppet who isn't even involved in the SF community and has some sort of failed writer grudge.
Given that tnh apparently moderates for a living, and seems to be quite involved in the writing world (since she cannot keep herself from bragging about how she's clearly only disliked by failed writers - and angry POC clinging to their anonymity so they can troll her, of course), I don't think it's an unsafe assumption to say she is a person who knows her way around moderating a discussion, as well as knowing the power of the written word and how to wield said power. Therefore, adding in the fact that her newest comments have come four days after her initial outburst - more than enough time for her to calm down, I can only assume that the person here acting in "bad faith" is tnh.
So, yeah, all of you tnh apologists? How about you stop trying so hard to defend a person who clearly doesn't need any of your help, and instead, take a few minutes to think *just about what she's been doing here*. As for you, tnh...wow. A piece of work like you doesn't come around very often.
The motto of this story? You can lead a tnh to calm and thoughtful discussion where multiple points of view are offered and people disagree with each other and yet still respect each other's words, but you can't make her grow the fuck up and act like an adult.
Final note: I'm going to bed in a bit, and will be screening all comments from people I don't have friended while I sleep. As long as you don't show up with racist/sexist/etc. insults, I'll be letting your comment through, no matter how much you disagree with me. If you attempt to derail the conversation and refuse to acknowledge said derailing, I will freeze the thread. As I've said before, all people who've silenced others in their journal are pre-banned from mine until they learn to respect other voices besides their own. Racist trolls are pre-banned too, obviously. Feel free to go and express yourselves over in tnh's journal. I'm sure you'll be very welcome!