Time of Angels - Doctor Who

[chloris]

I have seen Flesh and Stone! And it was good! Kept me interested and I think it hung together well. Look for a more detailed review and picspam coming to this journal soon! But, before I do that, I do have one issue that I want to mention.

Comments

[elisi]

Re. the S4 finale, then I don't think it'll be retconned outright - I think Amy not remembering will have something to do with Amy *specifically*, and Leadworth (how do you know it's a duckpond if there aren't any duck?) and of course be terribly clever and timey-wimey...

[chloris]

I'll be fine with it having to do with Amy herself. He does call her the key to all this and it's clear that she is - it's her crack and it's following her around. And I'm willing to wait until the end of the season before I get all upset or worried, but implications of erasing events trouble me.

It's definitely going to be all timey-wimey though! We already have a clear scene of the Doctor crossing his own path in this episode and hints of other times in previous episodes. He's doing something!

[ascendant_angel]

This is my greatest fear, and you have just put it in words and made me look at it. We know Moffat want to distance himself from RTD era as much as possible, what better way to do that than some timey wimey thing that erases the last 5 years completely? Or maybe just up till S3 but still epic wrongness.

[chloris]

Getting rid of Donna is bad indeed! And I'm sorry for making you think about this.

It just started nagging at me once the Doctor mentioned that no one remembered the Cyberking. Even if Moffat is just trying to get rid of all the big, hard-to-explain invasions of Earth, we're talking much of the last 5 years since it's all connected. Once you get rid of enough, did Ten even exist as we knew him?

[evilgeniuslady]

Here's the thing: Even though history may get rewritten, the time travellers will still remember what actually happened, as witnessed by Amy remembering the soldiers after they'd disappeared. Which means it can never be a full retcon, no matter how much you think Moffat is aiming for this, because the Doctor, Martha, Mickey and Sarah Jane will still remember. Donna remembers too, in that part of her subconscious that's been locked away. In that way it is no worse than the reset button employed at the end of S3. And that's assuming Moffat is aiming for the crack to swallow up all the previous (new) seasons. We really don't know if that's what he's doing. I've stopped trying to guess Moffat's plot developments a long long time ago, because I never ever get them right. I'm sure it's going to turn out to be something very timey-wimey...

(Note: I am completely spoiler free (and I plan on staying that way), so all of this is just going on what's happened so far)

[chloris]

I know bits and pieces of the last two aired UK episodes since it's not worth it to stay pure when talk about the episodes are all over the place. But I don't know anything past that.

It's one thing for an episode to have a reset and another for a season or more. In this case, we saw it all happen and now it only exists in the memories of a couple people. Also, different characters had their lives change dramatically (or even come into being as a result) so I'm not sure where this would leave them.

As for what Moffat is going to do, I really have no idea either. I just hope it's fun and enjoyable (and that it isn't erasing the RTD years).

[caz963]

I'd argue that a retcon now - if there is one - is different to what happened at the end of S3, because we never saw the "year that never was" and because it actually made sense in terms of the plot; the desctruction of the paradox machine meant there could not be a sustainable paradox.

There is much speculation about the possibility of a retcon because under RTD, the entire population of the planet can no longer ignore the existence of aliens, which is very different to the situation in Classic Who. So if Moff is going to retcon it, he'll have to do it all, from the Slitheen onwards - maybe even the Guelph.

I admit that I will also be NOT HAPPY if this happens. I'm sure I'm just being a bit over protective or something, but it would feel to me as though Moff is thumbing his nose and pissing all over what RTD did when Rusty gave him his toys to play with!

[chloris]

I'd argue that too! It was self-contained and followed plotwise. We expected The Last of the Time Lords to have a big retcon in it and it did.

I can see where Moffat would want more of a clean slate at least as far as planet-wide invasions go (that way Who Earth is more like ours); however, I still don't like the idea of undoing much of the past five years of the show.

[asahifirsa]

Did you catch the supposedly future Doctor? There's a discussion that when the Doctor comes back to Amy and tells her to trust him, he's from a future timeline as he's wearing a jacket whereas the current Doctor lost his to an Angel. Unless of course it is just bad continuity :)

[chloris]

Yep. I did catch that and I'm firmly of the opinion that it was deliberate. The Doctor is gone and in a hurry but then he appears again wearing a coat (with the sleeves pulled up so Amy won't notice), and makes a cryptic but intense plea for her to remember something he said when she was 7 (perhaps when he came back that night!). Definitely two Doctors with the future one coming back to give Amy a message.

[asahifirsa]

Could it be a parallel one instead of a future one? We never did find out what happened to TenII when Ten regenerated--even though TenII was not supposed to regenerate. Or is this fallout from Waters of Mars? Adelaide killed herself, but there were two other people who survived and were never supposed to. What is a duck pond without ducks--a Pond! This could be (I hope not) a season-long hallucination as part of regeneration sickness--taking place in his mind as he's cared for by young Amy and her Aunt. And why did Angel Bob keep saying "The Doctor and the Tardis don't know..."? We've heard that they have kept a flat packed Tardis from 9-10's era. Why did the Tardis explode when 10 regenerated? Or did it? Is Ten somehow still hanging on, not wanting to go and unwilling to let this new man saunter off, thus affecting him mentally? Or is the Tardis interfering somehow and trying to repair the trauma of not just dying and regenerating, but losing his people again, as well as the Master again, with a bout of megalomania on the side? And

[chloris]

Hmmm...I don't think that Ten II can regenerate with one heart and, even if he did, he's in the altverse so I really don't think that Moffat is going there. It does make a lot of sense for Eleven at some future point figuring things out and realizing that he has to go back and cross his time line or he/amy/the rest of the universe will cease to exist.

I've heard theories that this season will all be a dream or that he's going to retcon out all the big invasions of the past few years. *throws up hands* I have no idea! I hate mysteries too. At least with a book I can read the end but here I have to wait.