I never believe the angels when they tell the brothers that they have no choice and that everything is predestined. We know that the angels are masterful manipulators. I think it is pretty obvious that Lucifer, Michael or Gabriel tell Sam and Dean they have no choice, because in their choice, that's exactly where Sam and Dean's greatest power lies. If Sam and Dean really had no choice, the angels wouldn't bother, because 'destiny' would play out no matter what the brothers think/do. No, the fact that they all try so desperately to convince the brothers is exactly the reason why I think that they lie. :)
If Sam and Dean really had no choice, the angels wouldn't bother, because 'destiny' would play out no matter what the brothers think/do.
Yes, definitely. But I also think (and it's just my own pet theory) that they believe or at least want to believe it's fate - and here I speak more about the fact that it had to be them than about the fact that they have to say yes, though of course these two facts are related. The idea of fate appeal to the angels' nature, which is why Castiel was so lost and confused and is just getting on board with "Team Free Will."
Oh, absolutely. I think that angels do believe in fate and prophecies and the immutability of the devine word and that they have a hard time comperehending the concept of choice/free will. Not because they don't have it - because we have seen that angels do have choices and free will - but because they are not used to using it. Castiel is the best example for that.
Not because they don't have it - because we have seen that angels do have choices and free will - but because they are not used to using it.
Yes and now that God is gone for whatever reason, they all have to deal with it, in various ways, because no one is there to tell them what to do. It was interesting to see how much Lucifer and Michael's speeches to their vessels were similar. I'm very curious about what a confrontation between them would look like.
It's true. With all the work the angels are doing to convince Dean and Sam that there's no escape from The Plan TM, one is forced to start to think if they are trying to convince themselves as well. I think that the best argument done in favor of Destiny and The Plan was made by Michael in this episode, though, that's why I found his talks with Dean so chilling. He allows for choice but marks them as irrilevant because all those microchoices always bring someone there where Destiny wanted them. There's also the fact that God for His own nature is above time and beyond time; He's always going to know the final outcome.
I find this aspect of the story endlessly fascinating because there's so many misunderstanding about free will and destiny and a gray area between the two opposite points that I'm hoping Supernatural is going to explore.
Ugh, I've just realized that instead of replying to this old comment of yours, I used the "leave a comment" function. *facepalm* So that you won't think I don't reply to your comments, I copy it here:
I find this aspect of the story endlessly fascinating because there's so many misunderstanding about free will and destiny and a gray area between the two opposite points that I'm hoping Supernatural is going to explore.
Oh yes, gray areas are where I like to live, and SPN has always been good at them. I'm a little worried about how they are going to handle God. I know some people wants God to show up and be on the Winchester's side, but I'm kinda meh about this option... Qui vivra verra, as we say in French!
Meta is kind of addictive, isn't it?
Lol, yes. Especially when people are encouraging me by reading and commenting! I'm still frustrated that I can't express myself as clearly as I would want to, though...
But if it was really the inescapable fate they say it is, why would they have to convince the brothers of it?
Good question! :-)
My comment on a few other peoples' posts has been -- The angels say over and over again that they don't believe in free will, that there is no such thing as choice, only destiny. But the angels CHOSE when to start the Apocalypse. Its beginning may have been foretold, but they -- not God -- chose when it started. They chose to contact the Winchesters to convince them to yield. They chose to act on their own in the absence of God. In fact they *chose* to believe that God is no longer with them. The angels are making so many choices that their constant refrain that free will is illusory is completely contradicted by their actions. I'm wondering when someone is going to point this out to them.
But the angels CHOSE when to start the Apocalypse.
More acurately, they let it happen - but yes, they definitely are "helping" fate a little too much. In fact the more they're talking about fate and how certain they are that Sam and Dean are going to say yes (and notice how Lucifer and Michael won't even threaten their vessels like Zachariah tried to do) the more I'm sure it won't happen like that.
Hi. I'm over from Dot's place, as I've seen you around. Actually, at one time, I was going to be a bilingual translator English-French to my language, but as it happened the bilingual option was scrapped. I still couldn't resist buying the Le Robert/Collins dictionary. :-)
I haven't seen Sherlock Holmes yet, but I believe the man Holmes was fighting is played by Robert Maillet, who's French-Canadian. Which, as we all know, is quite different from the people from the Hexagon. ;-) Am Scandinavian, can't help the mocking. Sorry. *g*
And oh, poor Rincewind. Hee. But yes, free will is definitely complicated, which only makes manipulation more interesting in my view. :-) And, as Dean likes to say, the angels are dicks.
Hi! Thanks for the information about the Robert Maillet - he indeed seems to be the man fighting Holmes. The strange thing is that when I watched the scene in the English version I downloaded, I had trouble recognizing French (and I've already heard French-Canadian speaking!). The words sounded... weirdly detached. I should watch it again with this information in mind.
Le Robert/Collins is my best friend! I use it very often to write fic in English - my English writing skills are still very limited. Translation is something that interests me very much (I do it for fun!), but I've rarely met people who feel the same. In other words, nice to meet you!
:-) IMDb is my friend. Still haven't seen the film though.
Hee! Though, writing and translating are really quite different. But fascinating, and sometimes quite hard. Never really been interested in writing fanfic, actually, and I don't read it very often either... though I started reading it way back when as quite often, people gave lots of clues to everyday American life, which is of course fascinating for a foreign language student.
Comments 15
Reply
Yes, definitely. But I also think (and it's just my own pet theory) that they believe or at least want to believe it's fate - and here I speak more about the fact that it had to be them than about the fact that they have to say yes, though of course these two facts are related. The idea of fate appeal to the angels' nature, which is why Castiel was so lost and confused and is just getting on board with "Team Free Will."
Reply
Reply
Yes and now that God is gone for whatever reason, they all have to deal with it, in various ways, because no one is there to tell them what to do. It was interesting to see how much Lucifer and Michael's speeches to their vessels were similar. I'm very curious about what a confrontation between them would look like.
Reply
I find this aspect of the story endlessly fascinating because there's so many misunderstanding about free will and destiny and a gray area between the two opposite points that I'm hoping Supernatural is going to explore.
Meta is kind of addictive, isn't it?
Reply
So that you won't think I don't reply to your comments, I copy it here:
I find this aspect of the story endlessly fascinating because there's so many misunderstanding about free will and destiny and a gray area between the two opposite points that I'm hoping Supernatural is going to explore.
Oh yes, gray areas are where I like to live, and SPN has always been good at them. I'm a little worried about how they are going to handle God. I know some people wants God to show up and be on the Winchester's side, but I'm kinda meh about this option... Qui vivra verra, as we say in French!
Meta is kind of addictive, isn't it?
Lol, yes. Especially when people are encouraging me by reading and commenting! I'm still frustrated that I can't express myself as clearly as I would want to, though...
Reply
Good question! :-)
My comment on a few other peoples' posts has been -- The angels say over and over again that they don't believe in free will, that there is no such thing as choice, only destiny. But the angels CHOSE when to start the Apocalypse. Its beginning may have been foretold, but they -- not God -- chose when it started. They chose to contact the Winchesters to convince them to yield. They chose to act on their own in the absence of God. In fact they *chose* to believe that God is no longer with them. The angels are making so many choices that their constant refrain that free will is illusory is completely contradicted by their actions. I'm wondering when someone is going to point this out to them.
Reply
More acurately, they let it happen - but yes, they definitely are "helping" fate a little too much. In fact the more they're talking about fate and how certain they are that Sam and Dean are going to say yes (and notice how Lucifer and Michael won't even threaten their vessels like Zachariah tried to do) the more I'm sure it won't happen like that.
Reply
I haven't seen Sherlock Holmes yet, but I believe the man Holmes was fighting is played by Robert Maillet, who's French-Canadian. Which, as we all know, is quite different from the people from the Hexagon. ;-) Am Scandinavian, can't help the mocking. Sorry. *g*
And oh, poor Rincewind. Hee. But yes, free will is definitely complicated, which only makes manipulation more interesting in my view. :-) And, as Dean likes to say, the angels are dicks.
Reply
Le Robert/Collins is my best friend! I use it very often to write fic in English - my English writing skills are still very limited. Translation is something that interests me very much (I do it for fun!), but I've rarely met people who feel the same. In other words, nice to meet you!
Reply
Hee! Though, writing and translating are really quite different. But fascinating, and sometimes quite hard. Never really been interested in writing fanfic, actually, and I don't read it very often either... though I started reading it way back when as quite often, people gave lots of clues to everyday American life, which is of course fascinating for a foreign language student.
But yes, it's nice to meet you too. :-)
Reply
Leave a comment