Thank you for this post. I'm loving the discussion. I haven't read all of the 1000+ comments, so I'm probably repeating things, but this is what I was mulling over in my head after reading.
Regarding the question of whether men should stay out of women-led discussions of rape if all they have to say is, "I'm not like that!", my answer is: yes.
Even if some women are saying that all men are rapists in a publically viewable place--which isn't actually that likely; this conversation just doesn't take place as often as many people seem to think it does--why are we more concerned that what they're saying is factually inaccurate!!111 and demonizing men!!11 than with why these women might feel that all men are rapists
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I agree re: excluding men if the goal of the discussion is primarily woman-centered emotional support (to reassure and make a victim feel safer). That's not the place to for the sexes to debate the distinctions between this guy and That Guy. If the goal is to persuade* men to take a more active interest in what's been largely defined as a "women's issue," though, exclusion of men from the discussion doesn't forward that goal
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I said specifically that men should stay out of women-led discussions of rape, though. I should have been more clear and said: women-led, women-centric discussions of rape. The second type of discussion you mention is very male-centric, and one that is or (more likely) ought to be led by men. Of course, women do and will continue to lead such discussions, because we all want to persuade more men to become allies, but it shouldn't be prioritized above the first type of discussion (i.e., providing support to other women), and it should be no surprise that women often just plain get tired of doing it.
Furthermore, I think it's fair to ask the men who have time to chime in with, "I'm not like that!" why they aren't leading those discussions (or more of them). To paraphrase something cereta said in a comment, it doesn't take a lot for a man to step up from Potential Ally to Actual Ally: it's the difference between saying, "But I would never do that!" and saying, "It's terrible that some men are like that; how can we do more to fight that kind
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I said specifically that men should stay out of women-led discussions of rape, though. I should have been more clear and said: women-led, women-centric discussions of rape.
That's an important clarification, because of where we're having this discussion. This is a woman's LJ post, so when you say "women-led" it sounds like you're including this post. However, this post is pretty clearly one for talking about men's role. Therefore, I think tagryn's point applies well here: When a man posts something that basically boils down to "but I'm not like that" and not much more, this is "a legitimate point to be explored" in the very ways tagryn suggested.
In the kinds of discussions you refer to as "women-centric", engaging those sorts of comments is indeed derailing, but in this discussion, engaging them with challenging questions is on point.
Yes, I should have been more clear. Maybe I misunderstood tagryn's point; I certainly didn't mean to suggest men shouldn't comment on this discussion, or that they should be shut down when they do. I was trying to reinforce the more general point cereta made, about what happens in most discussions: If you do nothing else, let us name the problem for what it is without insisting we acknowledge you.
Regarding the question of whether men should stay out of women-led discussions of rape if all they have to say is, "I'm not like that!", my answer is: yes.
Even if some women are saying that all men are rapists in a publically viewable place--which isn't actually that likely; this conversation just doesn't take place as often as many people seem to think it does--why are we more concerned that what they're saying is factually inaccurate!!111 and demonizing men!!11 than with why these women might feel that all men are rapists ( ... )
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Furthermore, I think it's fair to ask the men who have time to chime in with, "I'm not like that!" why they aren't leading those discussions (or more of them). To paraphrase something cereta said in a comment, it doesn't take a lot for a man to step up from Potential Ally to Actual Ally: it's the difference between saying, "But I would never do that!" and saying, "It's terrible that some men are like that; how can we do more to fight that kind ( ... )
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I said specifically that men should stay out of women-led discussions of rape, though. I should have been more clear and said: women-led, women-centric discussions of rape.
That's an important clarification, because of where we're having this discussion. This is a woman's LJ post, so when you say "women-led" it sounds like you're including this post. However, this post is pretty clearly one for talking about men's role. Therefore, I think tagryn's point applies well here: When a man posts something that basically boils down to "but I'm not like that" and not much more, this is "a legitimate point to be explored" in the very ways tagryn suggested.
In the kinds of discussions you refer to as "women-centric", engaging those sorts of comments is indeed derailing, but in this discussion, engaging them with challenging questions is on point.
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