I think you've covered the major points that make a good seder for me. I really enjoy a seder that has lots of focused discussion, and was lucky enough to have that the first night. We used the old Maxwell House haggadot, but people were thoughtful and involved, and the discussion was good. It helped that pretty much everyone there was knowledgeable; there wouldn't have been the same level of conversation had there been people who weren't at all familiar with the seder and/or ideas of exegesis, and so on.
Having people awake helps to, which is why I rather liked this year's Saturday night first seder, since it meant people were well-rested (comparatively, anyway).
For the Judaism ignorant on among your friends, would you mind giving a little more of a rundown of just what a Seder is? Something to put your requirements a little more in context.
There is a decent overview at Judaism 101. Broadly, the seder is a ritualized recounting of the exodus from Egypt; it is a home ritual around a meal, not a synagogue service, in part to encourage discussion. (Also to reinforce the family element, given the commandment to "teach your children".)
I agree wholeheartedly with your list of requirements, albeit we might disagree on the details of what the fulfillment of each might entail. In my family, I was the one with any semblance of a formal Jewish education. Don't get me wrong, though: we were not "non-religious" but rather "not especially observant". My mom lit the Shabbat candles, we observed Yarhzeits, we did Chanukah and the High Holy Days, that sort of thing. But I was the only one who could read Hebrew, for example (albeit my dad took to going to minyan later in life, anyway). My folks are gone, and I'm not close to my greater mishpocheh (family/clan), and hadn't been to a seder in too many years before Beth and I did the "community seder" at Temple haBonim this year. So that's my context
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I'm glad your family was able to go to a seder this year! And that you're feeling more in touch with the community in general.
I always loved the "I myself, and not a Seraph..." passage, and always insisted on it at home
Yes, I like that part too.
But then (if you will forgive me the use of the allusion), I can't help thinking that the "zeal of the convert" dynamic may be at play in their interest, something I recall us discussing so many years ago.
Yes, I expect you're right. And some Christians see it as part of their heritage (though a less-important one than some other things, I expect). But thirst for knowledge does not heed religious lines, so I'm not surprised by this. Most non-Jews don't go to, and aren't interested in, sedarim; we only see the ones who are/do.
But I was the only one who could read Hebrew, for example
Goot thing, too, since that launched a long, fascinating, and life-changing discussion. :-)
I am not so sure about commonality of purpose, but you certainly make a convincing case. I'd be delighted if people also had the goals I have in attending the seder, lest it become a tug-of-war with some pulling for more tradition, and some pulling for a quicker arrival at the meal, and some pulling towards more singing, etc
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Timing: How do you figure that the pre-meal portion (mostly maggid) takes longer than the post-meal section (mostly hallel)?
I was assuming arbitrary amounts of singing and discussion after the meal. Particularly if the discussion is getting long and involved during magid, people might want to pause and pick it up while the brisket is digesting. I, personally, can be flexible on timing of meals, but some people (and most kids) can't, and I'd rather postpone discussion than have people leave right after the meal and skip hallel etc.
Singing is technically disposable, but I find it adds a lot to the joy of a holiday for me. Obviously that's not universal. :-) (Yes, that was the Clementine song I meant. The version in our haggadah had assigned parts -- women sing this, men sing that, parents sing this, and the three kids with speaking parts were assigned.)
>I don't especially like Adir Hu (or know a tune for it)
I would propose that those two things are linked. The melody I know is probably modern, but hauntingly lovely. I would agree that the words themselves are not particularly compelling.
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Having people awake helps to, which is why I rather liked this year's Saturday night first seder, since it meant people were well-rested (comparatively, anyway).
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I always loved the "I myself, and not a Seraph..." passage, and always insisted on it at home
Yes, I like that part too.
But then (if you will forgive me the use of the allusion), I can't help thinking that the "zeal of the convert" dynamic may be at play in their interest, something I recall us discussing so many years ago.
Yes, I expect you're right. And some Christians see it as part of their heritage (though a less-important one than some other things, I expect). But thirst for knowledge does not heed religious lines, so I'm not surprised by this. Most non-Jews don't go to, and aren't interested in, sedarim; we only see the ones who are/do.
But I was the only one who could read Hebrew, for example
Goot thing, too, since that launched a long, fascinating, and life-changing discussion. :-)
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I was assuming arbitrary amounts of singing and discussion after the meal. Particularly if the discussion is getting long and involved during magid, people might want to pause and pick it up while the brisket is digesting. I, personally, can be flexible on timing of meals, but some people (and most kids) can't, and I'd rather postpone discussion than have people leave right after the meal and skip hallel etc.
Singing is technically disposable, but I find it adds a lot to the joy of a holiday for me. Obviously that's not universal. :-) (Yes, that was the Clementine song I meant. The version in our haggadah had assigned parts -- women sing this, men sing that, parents sing this, and the three kids with speaking parts were assigned.)
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I hadn't considered postponed discussion, which is certainly possible.
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I would propose that those two things are linked. The melody I know is probably modern, but hauntingly lovely. I would agree that the words themselves are not particularly compelling.
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