I am not so sure about commonality of purpose, but you certainly make a convincing case. I'd be delighted if people also had the goals I have in attending the seder, lest it become a tug-of-war with some pulling for more tradition, and some pulling for a quicker arrival at the meal, and some pulling towards more singing, etc.
I fully agree with the spirit of education, inquiry, and discussion. I think this is probably my number one thing, because I see this as the purpose of the entire ritual. I couldn't agree with this paragraph more.
Inclusion of traditional elements: Being more traditional than you, I would like to say every word. However, between 1) wanting to say every word 2) wanting to add insights and 3) wanting to start after the appearance of 3 stars, I can imagine this would be a great burden on some people (really late meal). So this year I settled for starting the seder when Rebecca's family wanted, and then when they started the meal, at approximately the time of the earliest opinion on the stars coming out, Rebecca & I went away for 20 minutes, conducted the seder up to the meal without much besides what's printed in the haggada, and returned for the meal.
Timing: How do you figure that the pre-meal portion (mostly maggid) takes longer than the post-meal section (mostly hallel)? I have never seen a seder where this was the case. However, I agree that "the more one adds on to the discussion, the more praiseworthy" should be taken seriously. Many Orthodox seders end quite late (2AM is certainly not unheard of, especially if one doesn't have small children)
Singing: I like signing, but feel that it is in a sense the most disposable part here. I found the Ballad of the Four Sons this year in the Velveteen rabbi's haggada (velveteenrabbi.blogs.com/blog/2008/03/velveeen-rabbis.html) (which is what I assume you meant by "that clementine song"). I liked it, but didn't sing it at the seders this year, but did add it to my Haggada. I don't especially like Adir Hu (or know a tune for it), but Who knows one and Chad Gadya are nice. However, in line with singing being a disposable part of the seder, there is a reason they appear at the end. Those looking to escape early can end with Next year in J'lem/counting the omer. I like to sing Hallel, but it wouldn't make or break my seder.
Timing: How do you figure that the pre-meal portion (mostly maggid) takes longer than the post-meal section (mostly hallel)?
I was assuming arbitrary amounts of singing and discussion after the meal. Particularly if the discussion is getting long and involved during magid, people might want to pause and pick it up while the brisket is digesting. I, personally, can be flexible on timing of meals, but some people (and most kids) can't, and I'd rather postpone discussion than have people leave right after the meal and skip hallel etc.
Singing is technically disposable, but I find it adds a lot to the joy of a holiday for me. Obviously that's not universal. :-) (Yes, that was the Clementine song I meant. The version in our haggadah had assigned parts -- women sing this, men sing that, parents sing this, and the three kids with speaking parts were assigned.)
>I don't especially like Adir Hu (or know a tune for it)
I would propose that those two things are linked. The melody I know is probably modern, but hauntingly lovely. I would agree that the words themselves are not particularly compelling.
I fully agree with the spirit of education, inquiry, and discussion. I think this is probably my number one thing, because I see this as the purpose of the entire ritual. I couldn't agree with this paragraph more.
Inclusion of traditional elements: Being more traditional than you, I would like to say every word. However, between 1) wanting to say every word 2) wanting to add insights and 3) wanting to start after the appearance of 3 stars, I can imagine this would be a great burden on some people (really late meal). So this year I settled for starting the seder when Rebecca's family wanted, and then when they started the meal, at approximately the time of the earliest opinion on the stars coming out, Rebecca & I went away for 20 minutes, conducted the seder up to the meal without much besides what's printed in the haggada, and returned for the meal.
Timing: How do you figure that the pre-meal portion (mostly maggid) takes longer than the post-meal section (mostly hallel)? I have never seen a seder where this was the case. However, I agree that "the more one adds on to the discussion, the more praiseworthy" should be taken seriously. Many Orthodox seders end quite late (2AM is certainly not unheard of, especially if one doesn't have small children)
Singing: I like signing, but feel that it is in a sense the most disposable part here. I found the Ballad of the Four Sons this year in the Velveteen rabbi's haggada (velveteenrabbi.blogs.com/blog/2008/03/velveeen-rabbis.html) (which is what I assume you meant by "that clementine song"). I liked it, but didn't sing it at the seders this year, but did add it to my Haggada. I don't especially like Adir Hu (or know a tune for it), but Who knows one and Chad Gadya are nice. However, in line with singing being a disposable part of the seder, there is a reason they appear at the end. Those looking to escape early can end with Next year in J'lem/counting the omer. I like to sing Hallel, but it wouldn't make or break my seder.
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I was assuming arbitrary amounts of singing and discussion after the meal. Particularly if the discussion is getting long and involved during magid, people might want to pause and pick it up while the brisket is digesting. I, personally, can be flexible on timing of meals, but some people (and most kids) can't, and I'd rather postpone discussion than have people leave right after the meal and skip hallel etc.
Singing is technically disposable, but I find it adds a lot to the joy of a holiday for me. Obviously that's not universal. :-) (Yes, that was the Clementine song I meant. The version in our haggadah had assigned parts -- women sing this, men sing that, parents sing this, and the three kids with speaking parts were assigned.)
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I hadn't considered postponed discussion, which is certainly possible.
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I would propose that those two things are linked. The melody I know is probably modern, but hauntingly lovely. I would agree that the words themselves are not particularly compelling.
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