You can get my theory on The Apple later, if you want it, but for now,
Eating from the tree of knowledge was a necessary transition in human history, just as going into slavery in Egypt was a necessary transition for the Jewish people.
Something being necessary doesn't make it not evil. As for Joseph's brothers selling him into slavery, there is no way that they could have known that it would be necessary in order to save them from the famine or to set up the Hebrews to receive the Torah. They only knew that their brother had favor with their father, was acting arrogant, and wanted him out of the way. They were not performing an unpleasant but necessary task, they were trying to murder him for selfish reasons, and would have done so directly except for Reuben. I'm finding it rather hard to call premeditated kidnapping a good, or even a neutral act.
The analogy to The Apple is similar--they didn't know that it was necessary, only that it was evil.
That fits with my own interpretation of that story -- that they were not capable of evil, or of "sin", until they had eaten from the tree of knowlege of good and evil.
But instead of thinking of orignal sin as being a sin that tainted the rest of us, I think of it as "the origin of sin"; that transition in which humanity grew into being a moral species, after which sin existed because it was possible for us to know better. So you and I agree on that historical-transition perspective even if we use different phrasing.
As for the rest, well I've long maintained that "in His image" refers to our having free will, so it looks like we agree on the importance of intelligence and free will.
Aside for my non-Jewish readers: a kahafah (plural: hakafot)
Minor nitpick: I think you meant to write "Hakafah" rather than "kahafah" above. Darn dyslexia!
As far as the hakafot go, I've seen a bunch of different customs for them. At the places that I've been going to the past few years on Simchat Torah (basically Conservative ones in NYC: JTS, Ansche Chesed, Shaare Zedek, B'nei Jeshurun (aka BJ)) the custom is more or less this: 1. A "Hakafah" is announced. Often they start specific, then get general, depending upon how many people come up for one: e.g. "People who went to Israel last year. People who are going to Israel next year. People who are thinking about going to Israel next year..." 2. From among those "getting" the hakafah, a person or people reads the hebrew, which is basically of the formula Pure and upright, save us. Gracious to the needy, cause us to prosper. Good and benevolent, answer us when we call. (the italics change from hakafah to hakafah, and everyone joins in on the non-italic bits.) Others "
( ... )
Ah, I see a difference in the hakafot. At our congregation, the person who starts out carrying the scroll carries it for the entire lap, and then hands it to someone else when the next hakafah starts. But we don't go on for hours, so there's not enough time for people to get tired of carrying one. Maybe for next year we can get some real dancing going in the lobby or something and then hand-offs would naturally occur.
First fence around the torah: I've noticed the same thing. It's an obvious jumping-off point for sermons about the dangers of adding to the torah, but I don't think I've heard one yet. I didn't know about the midrash with the snake touching the tree; thanks.
I agree that eating the fruit (apple or no; figs seem likely, since fig leaves were handy afterward. And frankly, I love apples, but they don't seem nearly... seductive enough. Not like, say, a nice ripe peach...) was necessary for human history as we know it. There are midrashim that eating the fruit happened before Shabbat, and that had there been a whole Shabbat completing Creation before the eating, things might have been different. No idea how, but the idea intrigues me, nevertheless.
Simchat Torah: I was wondering about your Torah reading. The shuls I go to have our only night-time Torah reading on Simchat Torah night... so does your shul do some kind of reading in the morning? (Just emphasizing the Torah aspect of the day.)
Baruch Dayan Emet. I hope that the situation changes to one where it is unacceptable (on both sides) to kill random people, for whatever reason.
Re: misc reactionscellioOctober 10 2004, 08:06:29 UTC
I've also heard pomegranates as candidates for the fruit.
I was wondering about your Torah reading.
We had readings both evening and morning. In both cases, people were called up for group aliyot. (They did it by birth-month to make sure everyone was included.) Do traditional congregations not read on Simchat Torah morning?
Re: misc reactionsmagidOctober 10 2004, 08:17:45 UTC
We do read in the morning, as usual; I was just thinking that we also have the night reading added on, and didn't know if you added a morning reading on to your more usual evening reading.
(The evening reading is short, just three quick aliyot; the morning ones include an aliyah for everyone, plus chatan Torah and chatan Breishit.)
Re: misc reactionscellioOctober 10 2004, 08:20:57 UTC
Ah, got it.
The Reform movement (mostly) reads at night on Shabbat, because (historically) that's when people come. We also read Shabbat morning, though. I don't know what the usual practice is, but in our synagogue we do not read at night for holidays (just in the morning), except of course for Simchat Torah when reading at night is the norm. We're also starting to not read one Friday a month when we have our "mostly musical shabbat". I think my rabbi is trying to gradually move things more toward what kabalat shabbat is supposed to be, at lease for those services. I approve.
We had "big" readings (that is, with everyone getting aliyot) both evening and morning.
The way Simchas Torah usually done at the shuls I've attended (all O., FWIW) is through auctions. The honors -- leading each individual hakafah and maybe some other stuff, I don't quite know what all -- are auctioned off. It's usually a humorous and spirited exchange; nevertheless, I'd rather skip it and get right to the wild singing and dancing, which I just love watching. I got there right as the auctions began on Friday morning, so I saw people "buying" (quotation marks since this is on yontif) honors for friends, for family members, for honored members of the congregation, for entire groups of people, etc. So these were the people who were carrying the scrolls and doing the chanting as each hakafah began, but the scrolls got handed around all over the place as things progressed. Also, the hakafos didn't have leaders for very long -- once the dancing started, it became more of a free-for-all, with some running, some walking, some dancing, some just jumping in place, some hanging around the bimah in order to beat out a rhythm, kids
( ... )
I really dislike the auctions; I've been lucky enough to not run into them much. Except the years I was in Israel, and the yeshivah auctioned things off to the highest bidder... in extra pages of Gemarah or chapters of Mishna learned, depending on the level of the student. All learning to be done by Channukah, I think.
First of all, if I haven't already said so, happy birthday ...
The auctions are something that make me glad not to be in the men's section, quite frankly (though women bid here as well). I know it's for a good cause, I know it's done in a way that technically doesn't violate yontif, etc etc etc -- I just wish it could be done before yontif and in a more private way, so that it doesn't become a show (and so that it doesn't delay the agenda for the day, which is -- dancing!).
I'm with you about the auctions; it just doesn't feel yontifdik in the right way for me. I mean, isn't there some other way to raise money for the shul...?
Comments 14
Eating from the tree of knowledge was a necessary transition in human history, just as going into slavery in Egypt was a necessary transition for the Jewish people.
Something being necessary doesn't make it not evil. As for Joseph's brothers selling him into slavery, there is no way that they could have known that it would be necessary in order to save them from the famine or to set up the Hebrews to receive the Torah. They only knew that their brother had favor with their father, was acting arrogant, and wanted him out of the way. They were not performing an unpleasant but necessary task, they were trying to murder him for selfish reasons, and would have done so directly except for Reuben. I'm finding it rather hard to call premeditated kidnapping a good, or even a neutral act.
The analogy to The Apple is similar--they didn't know that it was necessary, only that it was evil.
Reply
Can someone who hasn't eaten from the tree of knowledge of good and evil perform an evil act? Or does evil require intention?
I don't think Adam and Chava were capable of evil at the time.
Reply
Reply
But instead of thinking of orignal sin as being a sin that tainted the rest of us, I think of it as "the origin of sin"; that transition in which humanity grew into being a moral species, after which sin existed because it was possible for us to know better. So you and I agree on that historical-transition perspective even if we use different phrasing.
As for the rest, well I've long maintained that "in His image" refers to our having free will, so it looks like we agree on the importance of intelligence and free will.
Reply
Minor nitpick: I think you meant to write "Hakafah" rather than "kahafah" above. Darn dyslexia!
As far as the hakafot go, I've seen a bunch of different customs for them. At the places that I've been going to the past few years on Simchat Torah (basically Conservative ones in NYC: JTS, Ansche Chesed, Shaare Zedek, B'nei Jeshurun (aka BJ)) the custom is more or less this:
1. A "Hakafah" is announced. Often they start specific, then get general, depending upon how many people come up for one: e.g. "People who went to Israel last year. People who are going to Israel next year. People who are thinking about going to Israel next year..."
2. From among those "getting" the hakafah, a person or people reads the hebrew, which is basically of the formula Pure and upright, save us. Gracious to the needy, cause us to prosper. Good and benevolent, answer us when we call.
(the italics change from hakafah to hakafah, and everyone joins in on the non-italic bits.) Others " ( ... )
Reply
Ah, I see a difference in the hakafot. At our congregation, the person who starts out carrying the scroll carries it for the entire lap, and then hands it to someone else when the next hakafah starts. But we don't go on for hours, so there's not enough time for people to get tired of carrying one. Maybe for next year we can get some real dancing going in the lobby or something and then hand-offs would naturally occur.
First fence around the torah: I've noticed the same thing. It's an obvious jumping-off point for sermons about the dangers of adding to the torah, but I don't think I've heard one yet. I didn't know about the midrash with the snake touching the tree; thanks.
Reply
Simchat Torah: I was wondering about your Torah reading. The shuls I go to have our only night-time Torah reading on Simchat Torah night... so does your shul do some kind of reading in the morning? (Just emphasizing the Torah aspect of the day.)
Baruch Dayan Emet. I hope that the situation changes to one where it is unacceptable (on both sides) to kill random people, for whatever reason.
Reply
I was wondering about your Torah reading.
We had readings both evening and morning. In both cases, people were called up for group aliyot. (They did it by birth-month to make sure everyone was included.) Do traditional congregations not read on Simchat Torah morning?
Reply
(The evening reading is short, just three quick aliyot; the morning ones include an aliyah for everyone, plus chatan Torah and chatan Breishit.)
Reply
The Reform movement (mostly) reads at night on Shabbat, because (historically) that's when people come. We also read Shabbat morning, though. I don't know what the usual practice is, but in our synagogue we do not read at night for holidays (just in the morning), except of course for Simchat Torah when reading at night is the norm. We're also starting to not read one Friday a month when we have our "mostly musical shabbat". I think my rabbi is trying to gradually move things more toward what kabalat shabbat is supposed to be, at lease for those services. I approve.
We had "big" readings (that is, with everyone getting aliyot) both evening and morning.
Reply
Reply
Reply
The auctions are something that make me glad not to be in the men's section, quite frankly (though women bid here as well). I know it's for a good cause, I know it's done in a way that technically doesn't violate yontif, etc etc etc -- I just wish it could be done before yontif and in a more private way, so that it doesn't become a show (and so that it doesn't delay the agenda for the day, which is -- dancing!).
Reply
I'm with you about the auctions; it just doesn't feel yontifdik in the right way for me. I mean, isn't there some other way to raise money for the shul...?
Reply
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