gay in the media, slash, and why trek fandom makes me wibble.

[betweenthebliss]

i'm quoting someone on my Dth reading page here, who said "some day i will write a post that's not about star trek, but it is not this day"-- really it's more like, some day i will not spend half my work day thinking about star trek, but it is not this day

Comments

[nickhornby]

A-fuckin'-men. Except not the "fucking men" part, obvs. ;)

[betweenthebliss]

bahahahahaha. *sporfle*

[azurelunatic]

It amazes me that there's so little difference in the portrayal of Kirk (mostly we see him strike out more) and now the fandom is wholeheartedly embracing Jim Kirk, Intergalactic Equal-Opportunity Slut (in the sex-positive interpretation), when the previous incarnation was Jim Kirk, Intergalactic Ladies' Man (plus Spock). The difference is in us, and this makes me happy.

[betweenthebliss]

me too! i've loved trek all my life but never been in any of its fandoms before now, but just from listening to some of the veterans i can tell there's a difference, and i think it's a great one. it just shows how ingrained we are in the culture that tells us gay = bad, to think that i never would have even thought about this issue (a future where being gay isn't any stranger than being blonde) without having an example of it.

and omg, now i need an icon that says jim kirk, intergalactic equal-opportunity slut, lmfao!!

[azurelunatic]

I have a couple subcultures where the joke is that the straight males are the minority, so they occasionally have solidarity moments. So it's not that completely alien to me, but it's great to watch.

I've been watching Harry Potter fanfic too, and I notice that there are three generations and their attitudes portrayed, too: the "but I can't be queer because I like girls (oh god what if I *am*)" in the Marauders-era, the "Oh god what if I'm gay" in Harry's school days, and the "Oh god I'm gay how do I tell my parents"/"How do I tell my parents I'm dating *him* of all boys (girls aren't in the picture because I'm gay)" in the Albus Severus/Scorpius fics.

[betweenthebliss]

yeah, HP was how i got into fandom, actually, it's probably the only fandom (until trek!) that i can say i was really "part of"-- and it's really interesting to see the way authors play with / play around the cultural view of homosexuality in the different generations. i haven't read potterfic in a long time (except a few things posted by people on my regular LJ flist, and possibly hpvalensmut once in a while) so i've never read anything concerning harry's kids' generation-- but i can imagine the good authors do take into account the changing climate in the way the world views gay people

[deadraconis]

Wow, totally agreeing with you here.
I saw the movie last Sunday (on my birthday, omgsquee) and ever since been entranced by Trek fandom (more precisely: K/S). And while absorbing immensely batshitinsane amounts of fic (and not doing my reading for university) it occurred to me, that at one point in the futute - we Slash fans will have our shows on screen without anyone fussing about omg, the gayz. Where boy/boy hero relationships will be accepted (and totally made of awesomeness) and girl/girl affairs actually not just a joke about how if I don't get a boyfriend soon I'll turn to girls (as if that ever possible). I think that if the strict hetero/homosexual thinking finally macerates and people finally won't give a shit with what sex exactly you're fooling around in bed, we Slash-fans will finally have reached our goals.

It kinda makes me sad on the other side, though, because there won't be that much fic to write anymore. After all, we will have it live on screen. Then again ... omg. That will be hot.

[betweenthebliss]

yeah, it's really just mind-blowing that like, some day it won't be something weird that you have to keep your mouth shut about, you know, like you'll be able to walk out of a movie like that with just about anyone and say "oh my god i really wanted them to make out", lol. and it won't be shocking or strange, any more than it would be to walk out of a movie and talk about a het pairing you wanted to see make out

[deadraconis]

oooh, you talk of what I wanted to be reality for years now! I've been a slash person for almost a decade now (has it really been that long already?) and I wish that we could finally walk out of a movie and do exactly what you said! I mean, I do with my friends but there is still that uncomfortable feeling lingering in the back of my mind because public opinion says otherwise. I really hope for this time to come and I totally follow you here on the I want to live 200 years from now just to see it happening. Then again, I guess fandom is doing a HUGE amount of work to make it happen. Sometimes it feels like the world besides fandom is so small, narrow and cramped up. Where possibilities are not as wide and countless, and it's kinda frustrating that this world has to be reality. Kinda weird, ain't it

[betweenthebliss]

oh god don't apologize, i *love* conversations like this. i get so into talking about fandom participation as a subject worthy of its own discussion and not just as an explanatory footnote to writing porny fic (which, don't get me wrong, is totally valid in and of itself XD) -- x-ref the thread above this one, and this onethere is a /reason/ we slash, i think that's the most important part of what cimorene was saying in the post i linked to above-- slash is so prolific because there is almost no space for non-straight people and non-cisgendered people in mainstream media. you just mostly don't see them, unless they're the villain or they get killed off. yes, there's 'to wong foo', 'boys don't cry', 'imagine me & you'; there's 'queer as folk' and (much as i loathe it) 'the l word'. but the entire premise of those two shows, at least, is "look, gay people are just like straight people, they're people, did you know?" and it's infuriating that we /have/ to turn to our own devices to find a world where being gay is okay. it's absolutely

[anonymous]

that maybe some day we'll have books, movies, tv shows and comics where "omfg, i'm gay!" isn't the issue that takes over the entire story.

I hope this day is far, far away. There need to be more stories aknowledging this, not less.

I know this gets into the way of the squee often, much like other real life issues do (for example racism), but I think it's actually important that it is aknowledged. That it isn't a lot in slash seems to be one of the biggest problems in slash. I know that many heterosexual people like to blend out how our society works, especially taking priviledge into account.

But that doesn't mean it should be done, or is better if it is. Silencing issues just isn't the way to go, and it doesn't make a story better.

[betweenthebliss]

i'm not talking about silencing the issues-- of course coming out stories are important, they're extremely important *especially* for people who struggle with their sexuality. what i mean is that, in my opinion at least, it's equally important to have stories that show that there's more to the life of a gay person than just the realization/coming out phase. that-- and again, in my opinion-- the only way being gay will stop being seen as something weird is if there are more visible, sympathetic characters who appear in stories and situations that make them accessible to people who aren't gay-- if books, movies, and other media show gay characters in roles and situations that make it easier for non-gay readers/viewers to sympathize with them and relate to them. because if the stories are always about the realization/coming out phase, it can be hard for someone who's never gone through that to relate, you know?

[azurelunatic]

I think it's equally important to gay/etc people to have characters who are dealing with phases of their life past the coming-out phase. There is more to being gay/bisexual than struggling with one's own identity and coming out; there's staying out, there's dealing with people who are going to be a creep about it, there's dealing with what happens when one's religion and one don't agree on the issue, there are the little awkwardnesses of daily life in a heteronormative world.

I think that yes, some of the stories need to be about existing in a heteronormative world, in all phases, from pre-awareness through realization and coming out to living out and sometimes even going back in. I think it's doing the community a grave disservice to say that all the stories about us must be about that. I want to see it acknowledged, and I want to see the actual plot and theme of the story be about something else.

[betweenthebliss]

YES. yes yes yes, this.

[anivad]

There was a long thread about this on the IMDb Trek '09 boards, and lots of people basically said that by that time they had probably found a way to turn gay people straight and enforced it to encourage proliferation of the species or something.

[betweenthebliss]

.........wow, that's pretty special. i don't even know what to say to that. >.<;;;;;;;

[dragojustine]

Okay, you know, I *really* wish I hadn't just gone and sought that thread out.

I think I just became stupider for reading it. (Not to mention pissed off, but that was expected)

But as for the transformation to Kirk, Equal-Opportunity Slut? Yes. That is totally a change in us, not on the screen.

[anivad]

But if it's more a matter of ensuring that all offspring are heterosexual, rather than altering initially-gay folks, would that be as bad?

Although no problems with pre-natal cure for transsexuality.