The biggest tragedy there was that Sam had died uncorrupted and free, and Dean's choice to bring him back was what opened the door to all the events leading to the apocalypse.
And if Mary hadn't made her deal, Dean and Sam would have never been born and the apocalypse as was wouldn't have happened either. If John hadn't made his deal, pretty much ditto. I don't understand why the buck of responsibility seems to lie solely with Dean here?
Dean imposed his own similar decision on Bobby too, when he staked his own life on a game of cards in The Curious Case Of Dean Winchester to undo Bobby's own free if unwise choice and loss.
And Bobby, Sam and Cas for various reasons (in soulless Sam's case I have no idea) all lied to Dean for a year for his own good and took the decision on what to do with the information of Sam's return away from him. So did John with his own demon deal. It's very much a staple of this show and again not something that Dean is solely guilty of IMO.
I don't dispute that others share guilt for things that happened, and made decisions for others that took away their own choices, but the focus of this discussion was simply about Dean's choices in this regard. I'm not blaming Dean for anything, nor would I ever do that; please, never make the mistake of thinking I put all the burden on any one character. This particular discussion happened to focus on Dean, but I've focused similarly on John, Mary, Sam, and Bobby in other commentaries.
We're all affected by the actions of others, and the Winchesters aren't immune to that. But that doesn't make any of us, or any of them, less responsible for the individual choices we make on our own behalf.
Funny: in an email exchange with others before this review went up, I expressed the conversation as being between EITHER Sam or Dean and Castiel; I used Dean here only because, given the way the episode was structured, there was more opportunity for conversation between Dean and Castiel than between Sam and the angel. But I'm with you: I'd have LOVED to have seen Sam speak to Castiel from his own perspective and bitter experience! That might even have carried more weight, coming from Sam's own personal conviction. I have hope that will still happen in season 7, and be all the more potent then for the two of them sharing their mistakes.
I wasn't amazed or taken aback by Sam's comment in 6.20, though; Sam (with a soul, anyway!) is perfectly sensible about what Team Free Will owes to Castiel, and he is a friend. Sam's perspective may be a bit tainted now since he knows Castiel brought him back without a soul, but I still think that could be overcome if only Castiel admitted he'd made a mistake and been too ashamed and
( ... )
As usual, you have written out in longhand most of what was roiling in my mind after the episode.
Your take on the conversation Dean and Cas should have had is what I have been bemoaning as well--talk to each other, dammit--but that has not ever been part of the relationships in this show until too late.
And erasing Ben and Lisa's memories--yes to everything you said: understanding why Dean wanted it but pointing out how wrong for Dean to make the choice for them! Sandymg wrote a post 'Swan Song' story where Cas offers to erase Dean's memory of Sam, and Dean is furious at the thought of Sam's existance being erased, even if it means Dean will remain in emotional pain, and watching this scene just made me know Dean would never have permitted the reverse...
Not to mention, Lisa and Ben are left wide open to anything evil with a bone to pick with Dean anyway.
I so desparately wanted Dean to have the unconditional love of the Braedens in his life, this turn of events just tore my heart out and stomped on it...
So much of this show is built around what might have been, if only the principal characters had leveled with each other and talked things through - but how true is it that the same opportunities are so often missed in real life? We can see it so clearly and comment on it here, but how many times do we overlook the things we could have changed with a right word or piece of honesty in our own lives? Whenever I get frustrated with the Supernatural characters for such missed opportunities, I make myself remember my own mistakes, and suddenly become much more forgiving both of the show characters and of others in my own life
( ... )
I am waiting with baited breath for your commentary on the last ep.... I don't fully understand why, but ep 22 left me feeling.... I don't know, flat maybe. It's not that I didn't liek it per-say, but I kind of felt empty and didn't know why. And as in the past, I find that the insights you give often make me see things in s different way, and I think I'll feel better.
Thats' not putting any pressure on you of course (g), I too think the story is not finsished and we need to see the next 2 eps to get the full picture.
I'm just scared for everybody, especially Cas, I can see God making an appearance here, if nothing else to prevent Cas from destorying the world.
I have to admit that I didn't enjoy this episode and that it left me with a bad taste in my mouth and a real growing resentment against Dean as a character, and it was all because of those final scenes with the mindwipe.
I appreciate your thoughtful analysis of why Dean did that and I agree that it is completely in character for Dean to make this kind of decision and take on other people's pain, but I think you give him too much credit. I may be wrong here, but my gut feeling watching this episode was that Lisa would want absolutely nothing to do with Dean ever again once she woke up, considering she'd seen her boyfriend murdered, been kidnapped and possessed and seen her son traumatised. So the relationship would be over and done with anyway, and sure, that would be sad and everything but at least it would be her choice. Dean took away her ability to chose, he violated her freewill - the one thing he supposedly believes in above all else. It was an immensely hypocritical, selfish and wrong thing to do, and I can't forgive him for
( ... )
"At no point has Dean explained rationally just why Castiel is so wrong" and "Castiel is wrong in keeping secrets and offing his lieutenants when they speak back to him " Word. Haven't they learned anything from experience?
Comments 13
And if Mary hadn't made her deal, Dean and Sam would have never been born and the apocalypse as was wouldn't have happened either. If John hadn't made his deal, pretty much ditto. I don't understand why the buck of responsibility seems to lie solely with Dean here?
Dean imposed his own similar decision on Bobby too, when he staked his own life on a game of cards in The Curious Case Of Dean Winchester to undo Bobby's own free if unwise choice and loss.
And Bobby, Sam and Cas for various reasons (in soulless Sam's case I have no idea) all lied to Dean for a year for his own good and took the decision on what to do with the information of Sam's return away from him. So did John with his own demon deal. It's very much a staple of this show and again not something that Dean is solely guilty of IMO.
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We're all affected by the actions of others, and the Winchesters aren't immune to that. But that doesn't make any of us, or any of them, less responsible for the individual choices we make on our own behalf.
Thanks for coming by and for commenting!
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Funny: in an email exchange with others before this review went up, I expressed the conversation as being between EITHER Sam or Dean and Castiel; I used Dean here only because, given the way the episode was structured, there was more opportunity for conversation between Dean and Castiel than between Sam and the angel. But I'm with you: I'd have LOVED to have seen Sam speak to Castiel from his own perspective and bitter experience! That might even have carried more weight, coming from Sam's own personal conviction. I have hope that will still happen in season 7, and be all the more potent then for the two of them sharing their mistakes.
I wasn't amazed or taken aback by Sam's comment in 6.20, though; Sam (with a soul, anyway!) is perfectly sensible about what Team Free Will owes to Castiel, and he is a friend. Sam's perspective may be a bit tainted now since he knows Castiel brought him back without a soul, but I still think that could be overcome if only Castiel admitted he'd made a mistake and been too ashamed and ( ... )
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Your take on the conversation Dean and Cas should have had is what I have been bemoaning as well--talk to each other, dammit--but that has not ever been part of the relationships in this show until too late.
And erasing Ben and Lisa's memories--yes to everything you said: understanding why Dean wanted it but pointing out how wrong for Dean to make the choice for them! Sandymg wrote a post 'Swan Song' story where Cas offers to erase Dean's memory of Sam, and Dean is furious at the thought of Sam's existance being erased, even if it means Dean will remain in emotional pain, and watching this scene just made me know Dean would never have permitted the reverse...
Not to mention, Lisa and Ben are left wide open to anything evil with a bone to pick with Dean anyway.
I so desparately wanted Dean to have the unconditional love of the Braedens in his life, this turn of events just tore my heart out and stomped on it...
Reply
So much of this show is built around what might have been, if only the principal characters had leveled with each other and talked things through - but how true is it that the same opportunities are so often missed in real life? We can see it so clearly and comment on it here, but how many times do we overlook the things we could have changed with a right word or piece of honesty in our own lives? Whenever I get frustrated with the Supernatural characters for such missed opportunities, I make myself remember my own mistakes, and suddenly become much more forgiving both of the show characters and of others in my own life ( ... )
Reply
Thats' not putting any pressure on you of course (g), I too think the story is not finsished and we need to see the next 2 eps to get the full picture.
I'm just scared for everybody, especially Cas, I can see God making an appearance here, if nothing else to prevent Cas from destorying the world.
Reply
I appreciate your thoughtful analysis of why Dean did that and I agree that it is completely in character for Dean to make this kind of decision and take on other people's pain, but I think you give him too much credit. I may be wrong here, but my gut feeling watching this episode was that Lisa would want absolutely nothing to do with Dean ever again once she woke up, considering she'd seen her boyfriend murdered, been kidnapped and possessed and seen her son traumatised. So the relationship would be over and done with anyway, and sure, that would be sad and everything but at least it would be her choice. Dean took away her ability to chose, he violated her freewill - the one thing he supposedly believes in above all else. It was an immensely hypocritical, selfish and wrong thing to do, and I can't forgive him for ( ... )
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and "Castiel is wrong in keeping secrets and offing his lieutenants when they speak back to him "
Word. Haven't they learned anything from experience?
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