*nods* That makes sense, and from my PoV comes from a confusion of subjective and objective realities. As I see it, subjective realities (like gods and similar beings) are completely real for people who choose to interact with them, but much less so for people who don't (barring occasional oddities like non-believers at a Voodoo ceremony being ridden by Loa).
Do you think of this as a conscious, intellectual choice? Or do things like inborn aptitude and acculturation enter into it?
What do you see as the scope of choice? In other words, is it a binary "yes/no" choice, beyond which "subjective reality" imposes itself upon the chooser, or do choices affect the content of "subjective reality?"
Do you think of this as a conscious, intellectual choice? Or do things like inborn aptitude and acculturation enter into it?
A bit of both - for most people, subconscious wants and desires are not under conscious control, and those have a major impact on many aspects of life.
What do you see as the scope of choice? In other words, is it a binary "yes/no" choice, beyond which "subjective reality" imposes itself upon the chooser, or do choices affect the content of "subjective reality?"
Definitely not binary, and past a certain point conscious choice has a lot to do with it. Most people who are open to such things will experience some degree of contact with the divine. However, making this something that is both deeper, longer lasting, and more reliable requires a great deal of work.
I like your use of JLS as an example, and I agree that the bottom line about the quality of life that results from holding a belief. In fact, that's one of my particular interests in this area
( ... )
[B]eing taken seriously and not considered a delusional idiot is important to me.
Understandably so! And while it probably goes without saying, it bears repeating out loud: I take you seriously and know that you are the furthest thing possible from an idiot. As for delusional...well, that's a longer conversation. :-)
I can't help noticing the character trait we share: the vast majority of Abrahamic theists believe that both of us are moral degenerates and self-indulgent rebels against the natural order of the universe who are rightly damned for all eternity. But what really stings is that they might think that we're stupid. There's gotta be something wrong with us....
But returning to substance, I hear you saying two things. First, that you experience various entities as distinct external autonomous beings. Second, that these entities actually are distinct external autonomous beings. And the relationship between the propositions is that, if the first is true and the second is false, then you must be delusional, and
( ... )
I'm not sure that there's any such thing as a "neutral" statement that someone's god doesn't exist. In any event, the kind of reaction I'm trying to unpack is not particularly dependent on the specific term "imaginary."
What does interest me is that the reply isn't, "Of course my gods are imaginary. Is that supposed to be news? So what?" It's interesting that the literal reality of this or that god matters so much. And my conjecture is that it matters because it is the basis for claiming authority of some sort, extending beyond the voluntary circle of co-believers
( ... )
That's a bit of a tautology, isn't it? If you believe in the literal reality of a god, you're a theist; if you're a theist obviously this belief is important or you wouldn't hold it.
At the semi-colon you appear to have switched from "all literal believers in God are theists" to "all theists are literal believers in God." Was that intentional?
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Do you think of this as a conscious, intellectual choice? Or do things like inborn aptitude and acculturation enter into it?
What do you see as the scope of choice? In other words, is it a binary "yes/no" choice, beyond which "subjective reality" imposes itself upon the chooser, or do choices affect the content of "subjective reality?"
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A bit of both - for most people, subconscious wants and desires are not under conscious control, and those have a major impact on many aspects of life.
What do you see as the scope of choice? In other words, is it a binary "yes/no" choice, beyond which "subjective reality" imposes itself upon the chooser, or do choices affect the content of "subjective reality?"
Definitely not binary, and past a certain point conscious choice has a lot to do with it. Most people who are open to such things will experience some degree of contact with the divine. However, making this something that is both deeper, longer lasting, and more reliable requires a great deal of work.
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Understandably so! And while it probably goes without saying, it bears repeating out loud: I take you seriously and know that you are the furthest thing possible from an idiot. As for delusional...well, that's a longer conversation. :-)
I can't help noticing the character trait we share: the vast majority of Abrahamic theists believe that both of us are moral degenerates and self-indulgent rebels against the natural order of the universe who are rightly damned for all eternity. But what really stings is that they might think that we're stupid. There's gotta be something wrong with us....
But returning to substance, I hear you saying two things. First, that you experience various entities as distinct external autonomous beings. Second, that these entities actually are distinct external autonomous beings. And the relationship between the propositions is that, if the first is true and the second is false, then you must be delusional, and ( ... )
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...who, ironically, are also believed by the vast majority of Abrahamic theists to be rightly damned for all eternity...
doesn't believe in damnation, much less over unbelief....
I wasn't thinking primarily about unbelief here. queen_in_autumn and I are damned for much racier transgressions than that. You too, of course. ;-)
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What does interest me is that the reply isn't, "Of course my gods are imaginary. Is that supposed to be news? So what?" It's interesting that the literal reality of this or that god matters so much. And my conjecture is that it matters because it is the basis for claiming authority of some sort, extending beyond the voluntary circle of co-believers ( ... )
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(The comment has been removed)
At the semi-colon you appear to have switched from "all literal believers in God are theists" to "all theists are literal believers in God." Was that intentional?
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