I Don't Believe There's an Atom of Meaning In It

[angua9]

I've always been a plot person, valuing books and movies far more for tight, clever plots than for things like beauty of language, interesting characters, or evocative settings. And I've always been downright suspicious of theme - it seemed to me when I first learned about them that pretty much every major work of fiction is about "good and evil"

Comments

[author_by_night]

Pirates of the Carribean's theme being about freedom is actually quite interesting... especially because I'd never thought of it having any theme. But I think you're right there.

Harry Potter... "love versus death" makes a lot of sense. But I almost think it's more "love and sacrifice." Because we see people dying out of honor, loyalty and love throughout the series.

[angua9]

Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

[connielane]

The closest quote I can think of (off the top of my head) to match the HP theme is Dumbledore telling Harry (and Voldemort, on another occasion) that there are worse things than death. Can't find the Harry example, but here's the Voldemort one:

"Indeed, your failure to understand that there are things much worse than death has always been your greatest weakness--" (OotP, 814)

[angua9]

Good one!

[sandyclaws68]

I'm only familiar with a few of the ones you've listed, but I have to say except for one I'm definitely in agreement with you. Although I would take the Harry Potter theme one step further and say it's more about love "vanquishing" death (inasmuch as something inevitable can be vanquished) than just about a battle/struggle between the two.

The LOTR one is what I kind of disagree with it. And take my opinion with a grain of salt since I am not a total Tolkein geek/fan. :D

Yes, at it's simplest and most basic the theme of LOTR is good vs. evil, but I think it goes deeper than that because of the very powerful presence of domination. To me that is what the Ring itself represents; absolute, complete, and souless domination. So I guess you could say it's about freedom vs. domination, or the souls of men/hobbits/elves/dwarves vs. the soulessness of Sauron/orcs/Uruk Hai/etc. I think the idea of soulessness is particularly powerful given what Tolkein endured during WW1 (a souless endeavor if ever there was one in human history

[angua9]

I argued with peachespig about this above.

Am I making any sense here?

Of course!

[violaswamp]

I do like theme, but I don't really see it as a separate issue from plot. They're very much intertwined; I don't think you can understand plot without understanding themes, at least not for a good book.

HP: I'd say, instead of Love v. Death (though I see how you could look at it that way), it's Fear of Death v. Heroic and Wise Acceptance of Death. The problem with Voldemort is that he fears death and seeks to avoid it at all costs. Harry's heroism is ultimately demonstrated by his embrace of death.

LotR: It's Good v. Evil, sure, but I think we can get more specific than that. I think it's about Benevolent Authority vs. Lust for Power. Authority is good in Tolkien, provided it's exercised in the proper way according to tradition and honor, and provided you don't usurp prerogatives that aren't yours. But authority isn't the same thing as power. Seeking power and dominion for their own sake is the definition of evil for Tolkien, IMO, especially if you rebel against the benevolent authority in pursuit of your own power and dominion

[angua9]

HP: I agree that Fear of Death v. Heroic and Wise Acceptance of Death is important, but I don't think that's all the Love v. Death err, deathmatch encompasses. In some cases, I think Love can actually, literally defeat (well, defer at least!) death. The most striking example would be Harry's sacrifice of himself protecting all of Hogwarts from Voldemort's AKs.

LotR: Good points. I totally stole from your argument (and sort of disagreed with it) above.

[violaswamp]

HP: yeah, on reflection, I think you're right. The heroic/wise acceptance of death is supposed to be motivated by love (Harry's love of Hogwarts and those in it, Lily's love of Harry, even Sirius telling Peter he should have died rather than betray his friends). And that love-motivated heroic acceptance is supposed to lead to resurrection, to cheating of death...sort of like C.S. Lewis and his "Deeper Magic from Before the Dawn of Time" that allows Aslan to die at the Witch's hands and then be resurrected. Very Christian, obviously.

LotR: not seeing the disagreement? I agree that my Benevolent Authority v. Lust for Power thing can be subsumed into Good v. Evil, if that's what it is. I just think that "good" and "evil" have pretty specific and substantive definitions in LotR.

[daksian]

Actually, PotC struck me as a very Chaos vs. Order kind of theme, of which Freedom is very much on the side of Chaos. That is, the series as a whole...though the initial movie as a stand-alone might be more about Freedom, I suppose. Lord Beckett serves as the general of Order, while Jack is the leader of Chaos.

With LotR, I'd almost say that rather than Good vs. Evil, it is Good vs. Power, or perhaps Tyranny more specifically. The orcs prepresent tyranny over flesh, while Sauron and the One Ring represent tyranny over spirit. I see this with Frodo's struggle with the ring, and Aragorn's quest to redeem his bloodline for its weakness in the face of power/tyranny.

I almost agree with you on HP, but again I have to quibble. I see it more as Love vs. Fear (in Voldie's case, a fear of death).

[hymnia]

ITA on both HP and LOTR. I would add that the internal struggle against evil in LOTR is as important as the external struggle between the forces of good and the forces of evil, if not more so.

[angua9]

Actually, PotC struck me as a very Chaos vs. Order kind of theme, of which Freedom is very much on the side of Chaos.

Okay, I absolutely agree, but I'd say the filmmakers explored the opposition of Order and Chaos in the service of their theme of Freedom rather than vice versa. That's what they say, anyway! (I mean, they say that they intended the films to be about freedom)