tuckered

[almostnever]

The latest discussion going around seems to be: the possible implicit misogyny of slash in the way that it disappears women from the narrative. Laughingrat had a good, brief post about it recently that was linked by Cimorene, who also made a good post on thisDiscussion is good. I've followed with appreciation the consciousness-raisings of the past

Comments

[almostnever]

Thanks. It's just like... when it comes to feminism, making women feel guilty about what they write for fun seems a little counter to the ideological goal.

[wiebke]

Almost without fail, when I try to write women, bad things happen. Usually to the women.

[almostnever]

Right, for whatever reason. Maybe because that's been your experience. It can be that way for a lot of reasons that have nothing to do with "misogyny." More consciousness is always good, but if we conclude that we prefer writing about men, I think that's cool and we should go with that.

[snacky]

Written in that context for whatever reason: because writers and readers want to explore relationships that are relatively unaffected by patriarchy, and/or want to write and read about queering pop culture narratives, and/or find two men together hot, and/or and/or etc, whatever reasons.

YES. To me, this is a HUGE part of the whole thing - there are multiple reasons why people write slash, and unfortunately lots of fans have a hard time seeing beyond their own, and then we get generalizations and characterizations of arguments based on this one POV and everyone starts talking past each other and no one really listens and omg ARGH.

Which is to say, I really like your post. :)

I'm having a really hard time with a lot of the posts, especially when people start explaining WHY they don't write female characters. It makes me want to write up a huge post about all the girls and women in fiction I have loved. But that is of course tangential to the whole thing.

[anatsuno]

Well, it maybe tangential to the discussion about why/how we do/don't do lots of stuff, but it's not tangential to, say, active feminism, or anyway, it's not tangential to loving girl and women characters. So I think it's totally worth doing, and probably more valuable than an umpteenth thoughts on yaoi post.

And I'm not saying that to put down THIS thoughts on yaoi post, cos I love it. :)

[almostnever]

Seconding anatsuno that I'd love to read your post about the girls and women in fiction you've loved. :-)

[seekergeek]

Yeah, the "Misogyny!" cry is what made me roll my eyes and stop following the conversation. I refuse to be ashamed of reading slash as part of my fantasy life because it's lacking in women. My fantasy life doesn't need women. I AM the woman. And I'm really sick and fucking tired of being accused of being a misogynist every time I turn around in fandom - to the point where I hereby pronounce a sort of corollary to Godwin's:

Once a fan raises the cry of "Misogyny!" that fan BECOMES A MISOGYNIST against the women they were arguing with.

[almostnever]

I think there are times when it's legit to say something a woman said or wrote or did might be misogynist. In political blogging, several conservative female pundits make a big deal out of how "masculine" their own thoughts and opinions are, and how they aren't feminists, and how most women's concerns are silly; they put down women as a whole, probably in order to feel like they stand out more as special and different. IMO that's misogynist. And then there are women like Phyllis Schlafly, a lawyer and professional woman who nevertheless campaigns against women's rights and advocates that women should be homemakers. Except for her, of course. I see that as misogyny

[seekergeek]

I agree completely on your definition of who a female misogynist is.

Yet fandom seems to have come up with a different definition for the word which in essence means "that woman who dared disagree with my opinion with one of her own" which is where I see this particular conversation going YET AGAIN. It's one thing to point out individual cases of genuinely problematic behavior, but tarring all of the slash community with the overly broad misogyny brush is misogynistic in and of itself and not supportive of women on the other side of the computer screen at all.

The misogyny accusations have gotten so out of hand that when I see "MISOGYNY" come up, I automatically assume that somebody has gotten butt-hurt and is lashing out. Which kind of defeats any sort of communication about the issue.

[almostnever]

It's one thing to point out individual cases of genuinely problematic behavior, but tarring all of the slash community with the overly broad misogyny brush is misogynistic in and of itself and not supportive of women on the other side of the computer screen at all.

Totally hear that.

when I see "MISOGYNY" come up, I automatically assume that somebody has gotten butt-hurt and is lashing out. Which kind of defeats any sort of communication about the issue.

Yeah, I see what you mean about how it becomes a kind of Godwin's situation at that point. No one can hear each other after that point.

[txvoodoo]

I don't dive into any of these, as I'm not a writer. But I will say, I wish there was more good fic about teh wimmenz.

[almostnever]

Well, even if you're not a writer, there are things you can do to try to encourage more of the fic you like. Leave feedback, friend and cheerlead writers who write about female characters... if you have time you could start or get involved with fests and challenges for fic about female characters. (Though of course that's more time investment than a lot of us can give.)

Just being visibly enthusiastic about fic centering on female characters and cheering on writers can do a lot to encourage more fic like that. I think one reason slash is so popular is because slash readers can't find this kind of stuff in many places, so they are very supportive and enthusiastic readers of it in fandom. And a big part of the fannish experience is sharing the love and excitement with others.

If more people are loudly squeeful and excited about fic featuring female characters, imo, more writers are going to be moved to share the love for those characters through fic. Lots of writers, especially amateur writers, respond a lot to enthusiasm!

[txvoodoo]

Honestly, I've dropped out of reading fic so much recently. I need to go back and leave feedbck for the yuletide things I did read (it was nigh-on impossible to do so when I initially read them)

Most of my fandoms I'd want to read are just plain not being written. A huge dearth. It makes me wish I *could* write, seriously.

Apparently, I have a penchant for orphan fandoms.

ETA: I don't want to get specific about it, either, because where this IS fic, it's often, well, bad. Which makes me sad. A sad, orphan-fandom lover.

[almostnever]

That's too bad. At least there's Yuletide, but I know it's a bummer to crave something with your whole heart and find there's little to nothing out there.