Something I've been wanting to ask for a while

[akashasheiress]

Am I the only one not seeing the True Love between Eleven and River? I mean, I know I'm not literally the ONLY one, but other than one or two flisters, everyone seems to think that this is a case of True Love Between True Equals. Here's why I disagree and why I find that interpretation, frankly, puzzling (then again, somebody did just literally

Comments

[intrikate88]

YANA! I totally agree with all of this. I can't stand how River is marketed as this Independent Strong Woman when she only shows obsession with the Doctor before locking herself back into a fucking jail cell at night. What the everloving fuck is that. And the thing is, I could totally love her- she is (ostensibly) an adventurer, an archaelogist, a woman unaffected by linear time, has a doctorate, is a skilled fighter. But we never get to see her on her own. She only is shown with the autonomy and identity that someone obsessed with the Doctor is allowed, and that isn't very much. I think the most genuine and moving thing she ever said was when she talked to Rory about how she was raised to relate everything to the Doctor and his visits from when she was very young, and asked with pain in her voice, "Do you know what that does to a girl?" It was little more than the slip of a pen on the writers' part, but she knows, somewhere, that her life and her relationship with him is not one of healthy equals.

[akashasheiress]

Seriously. I've come to realise over time that my problem is not so much with River herself (my main beef with her is that she's played by an actress who tends to annoy me, for some reason) as it is with the Doctor/River relationship. Also, I forgot one significant point: He puts her down and mocks her when she tells him she loves him and says she's an embarassment to him. There's a word for what he's doing and it's called emotional abuse. To make matters even more disturbing *scroll down for DVD extras spoilers

[intrikate88]

Well, that I've (unfortunately, hatefully) come to expect from Eleven. He has, for some reason that makes no sense, regressed to Nine's "stupid apes" worst moments. He's regularly insulting and belittling to Amy as well, and if his companions are so worthless, why does he bother with them? Get a goddamn radio, Eleven, if you can't stand the quiet. Bah

[akashasheiress]

Yeah, I just hope that he won't fall in True Love with her, because that relationship just can't be turned into an healthy one. If it has a warped foundation it will remain warped. Maybe he did take her to the waterfalls and then left her to live her life, true. I hope it wasn't a ''I love you, please kiss me'' moment D: I actually find the whole thing even more squicky now that we know she's Amy's daughter (and hey, never mind giving her PARENTS a chance to say goodbye to her, eh?)

I agree that there doesn't have to be consistency, but I thought it was pretty clear that those minisodes were supposed to be post-WoRS? So that's why I found the whole flirting-as-though-nothing-happened thing... weird. Also, as somebody who really dislikes the ship, I like how he does his best to avoid giving her mouth-to-mouth ;)

[rainbow_goddess]

I have never seen River as The Love of the Doctor's Life, any more than I saw Rose as The Love of the Doctor's Life. River and the Doctor are no more equals than Rose and the Doctor were.

Personally, I think the love of the Doctor's life is the TARDIS. After all, she's the only one he stays with and who stays with him. Everyone else leaves him (voluntarily or otherwise) or he leaves them.

[akashasheiress]

No, I don't think they are, either, but Moffat and certain segments of fandom seem to believe so. I'm unsure about the former, though. I just don't understand why it was necessary to give River such a long, drawn-out storyline.

[jjpor]

Well, you know what I've had to say about it: I thought Wedding of River Song was a much, much better episode than I thought it was likely to be before I saw it, but it did fall down in the bizarre disconnect between the climax of the story and the little epilogue scene(s), which appeared to want to have their cake and eat it too, really. I don't think the Doctor (especially this Doctor, with all his shifty-eyed coldbloodedness when his companions aren't looking) is likely to "come round" to the idea of him and River just because she was really sad or really wuvved him, or something. I can see him taking her on "dates" in some woefully inadequate attempt to make the situation right, because that's the way dysfunctional Eleven seems to be.

But as to what's going throught Moffat's head regarding the Doctor/River relationship or how he wants me, the viewer, to regard it...your guess is as good as mine, really.

[akashasheiress]

I'm very confused about it, as remarkably few fans seem to believe that there's anything less than completely and utterly requited love between them. I was starting to think that my ability to read emotions was even faultier than I thought.

Yeah, I can see Eleven attempting to ''make it up'' to her that, while still feeling deeply uncomfortable inside.

[jjpor]

And I'm starting to think that some fans weren't paying attention during that series finale (or letting the little pink hearts in their eyes distract them from what was happening on the screen up to the last couple of minutes or so ;)).

An idiot? Who/where (not that it's my business)? Was it, ahem, that comm? ;)

Edit: The worst bit it, he might think he was doing a good job "taking her mind off it"...

[akashasheiress]

It was Facebook, believe it or not. I simply wrote (in response to an article about River and her 'romance' with the Doctor): ''I'm not seeing much of a romance. It seems pretty one-sided to me. Also, I find their relationship pretty unhealthy and warped.'' And someone responded ''Maria is an idiot'' 0.0

[airie_fairy]

HIIII. Your number 5 is particularly something that GALLS as an example of something I'm supposed to find romantic or sweet or whatever, when really I find it unconvincing at best, and disturbing at worst, and definitely something that makes her external appearance as Strong and Independent into a complete lie.

[akashasheiress]

Hi there :)

Personally, I find the very concept of Strong Female Character problematic in itself because it opens a whole can of worms regarding which speficic traits a female character must possess in order to be considered ''strong'' (i.e. some fans feeling that nearly all female Old School companions were 'weak' because they didn't perform roles traditionally occupied by men). I think you sort of nailed with ''external appearance'', though. River is considered 'strong' because she has abilites that measure up to the Doctor's and because she's an action hero, but when we're talking on a purely relational level, the Doctor still holds a great deal of power over her because, well, she was groomed from infancy to be obsessed with him. Just because said obsession is now based on 'love' rather than 'hate' doesn't make it any less disturbing.