New Comics: The Rogues hold court in Scott Snyder's Joker story, "Death of the Family" (SPOILERS)

[about_faces]

At the risk of invalidating my opinion right off the bat, I want to briefly discuss the use of the Bat-Rogues--especially Harvey--in Scott Snyder's current Joker event, Death of the Family.

Comments

[about_faces]

I wouldn't say that my opinion is quite "the exact opposite." I think Snyder is spot-on when it comes to the Bat-Family, no disagreements there. I just don't particularly happen to care about the Bat-Family, y'know? But as for the Rogues... so far, all I've seen is a potentially good Riddler and that's kinda it. Again, reserving judgment on his Joker. I want to read the full story and see if I can possibly separate Snyder's writer from the utterly, pointlessly, boringly repulsive character design. It won't be easy

[about_faces]

As for Bat-fandom circles and trends, I must confess, I don't really run in any circles at all. I'm kind out of everyone's loop. Honestly, that's why I needed to start this blog in the first place, to find my OWN community! I've always been kinda out of touch when it comes to whatever's hot with current Batman readers, especially with the Hush era onward, and I don't really know enough fans of classic Batman to whom I could relate in the same way.

I'm not really sure what question you're asking or how to answer it, so I'll just ramble about what comes to mind. I haven't really noticed that trend per se, but I wouldn't be surprised if that were the case. There's always going to be disparity between old fans and new ones, partially became many old fans prefer the stuff they grew up reading and partially because many new haven't really read that much else. That's a gross oversimplification, mind you. There are many other factors at play here. I'm sure there are many new fans who would sooner gravitate to some older takes on the Joker

[ifyouresosmart]

I'm really getting sick of Joker god, I really am.
We get it, Joker is Batman's greatest nemesis, but you don't need to put down the others because you can't write them or don't want to write them.
I enjoyed the "court" aspect if only because I like that they pointed out how each of the rouges functions in relationship to Batman, it would be an interesting dream sequence, or even an Elseworld, but in "reality" it just comes off as wonky, even if I did enjoy Eddie actually looking like Eddie and not H.P. Lovecraft.
I'm also ready for Batman to be taken out of the extended DC universe for awhile, no Supes, WW, or Green Lantern. No real super powers beyond the classic rogues, just good old fashioned detective work instead of capeshit melodrama.
I don't really like the "super" part of superhero prose, that's why I like Batman, I want to read a better story that understands how rich the world of Gotham is, not Joker becoming a demi-god and putting the rest down.

[about_faces]

... even if I did enjoy Eddie actually looking like Eddie and not H.P. Lovecraft.

That's another thing about the upcoming Snyder/Capullo Riddler story that has be warily intrigued: the fact that Capullo's Riddler looks suspiciously classic and stylin', give or take some snazzy sideburns. I wonder if that part is inspired by Young Justice's bizarre and annoying take on the character?

No real super powers beyond the classic rogues, just good old fashioned detective work instead of capeshit melodrama.

I'm so with you on that. I mean, Clayface's powers are all good, but I'd like to see them less in a "massive clay monster used for huge battle scenes" and more like having him be an unsettling monster from a particularly creepy X-Files episode or something. That would fit in better with a good Dark Detective aesthetic for Batman.

I don't really like the "super" part of superhero prose, that's why I like Batman...I think I know where you're coming from on that point. I love superheroes, but my least favorite part of those stories are

[psychopathicus]

The way I look at it is that it's the 'super' that hooks people in, it's the 'hero' that keeps them coming back for more. In other words, big, spectacular sequences can be mighty nifty, but if the characters involved don't have some basic humanity and have to use their wits and skills in a relatable manner - well, then what are we reading for? I mean, Superman, for instance, is all about the flashy powers, but they're not what make him the iconic character that he is; it's his heroism and pure-hearted nature that does that.

[barcavolio]

Oh, no, not more Almighty Joker! I get it, he's charismatic, he's fun, he's probably the most well-known villain, but why does he have to be the undisputed leader of all and rule all the rogues without any protest? A big part of why I like Batman and his rogues so much is because, by and large, they're just ordinary people, most with no real superpowers (people like Poison Ivy and Clayface, not so much, but a lot of them aren't supervillains, if you know what I mean). I always liked that; that Batman is first and foremost a detective that has a lot of cool gadgets, and his rogues are extremely intelligent people who rely on their gimmicks and weapons to fight him. I also like the more conventional heroes, with their superpowers, but the lack of this sort of hyped-up "let's see whose powers are the best and strongest, I can break buildings with my nose" battles in this universe made Batman very refreshing for me.

Also, why is Joker calling Batman the once and future (Bat-)king? Is Batman King Arthur?Also (part 2), Joker's

[about_faces]

Also, why is Joker calling Batman the once and future (Bat-)king? Is Batman King Arthur?

I just don't know. Maybe the full story will explain it better. From what little I've seen, it sounded like the Joker was speaking of Batman more like a god worthy of worship, but somewhere along the way it became all about Kings and whatnot. I imagine that this happened because Snyder was having the Joker play off the "Court of Owls" thing with his own "Court of Batman," which would lead to kingly themes, but... yeah, I'm not sure how much any of it holds water in the actual narrative.

Yeah, it's kind of the exact OPPOSITE of what Harvey should be representing, y'know? If that's what Two-Face really thought, then his costume would be all gray rather than black and white.

[psychopathicus]

It may just have been a random reference - he does, after all, do that a lot.
Interesting thought - what if Harvey wore a gray tie? Like, right side white, left side black, gray in the middle. Gray like a coin.

[barcavolio]

Just random? Boo, I was expecting Excalibur and Morgan Le Fay and epic shit. It might liven up the story!

I really like that idea! Harvey, you snazzy dresser. And grey in the middle because it... mediates between the two sides. Worst marriage counsellor ever, though.

[psychopathicus]

OK, what I have to say is kind of similar to what some other people have already said, but I'll say it anyway. People need to stop trying to write Joker as the greatest Bat-villain ever.
Don't get me wrong; I think he probably is the greatest Bat-villain ever in terms of overall quality. He's certainly the most iconic, and one of the scariest. But here's the deal; he already is those things. There are decades of stories backing the Joker up as Batman's number one foe - look to any era of the comic's publication and you'll find find some representative examples, whether it's stuff like The Killing Joke, memorably goofy 'I've outwitted you again, Ho-Ho-Ha-Ha!' stuff from the '40's and '50's, the Mark Hamill interpretation from the DCAU, or, hell, stuff from even a few years ago

[lego_joker]

This. Dear God, this.

I actually really don't care all that much about how much of a threat the Joker is in the first place, or what "rung" he holds in Batman's rogues gallery. Hell, at least two of my favorite Joker stories have him do almost nothing in the way of chaos and mayhem.

To me, the Joker's primary worth isn't in how much he can challenge Batman. Anyone can have him bullshit some super-advanced poison or uber-complex psychological campaign or huge, bloody massacre. No, I like the Joker because at his best, he's funny. He's got an imagination that can go where no other character's can (one of those aforementioned two Joker stories? Basically 22 pages of Chuck Dixon having Joker's imagination run wild while being cooped up in a cell), and he can tell jokes based on genuinely sick topics that nevertheless wind up making the audience bust a gut

[psychopathicus]

Exactly. The Joker has stuck around as a villain not because he's so dangerous - hell, any villain can be dangerous; in a universe where there is literally a god of evil ruling a planet of evil, such things tend to dwindle in impressiveness - but because he's weird and funny and interesting. Yes, he can be a terrifying monster, but he's also a kooky weirdo who delights in the fact that he is a kooky weirdo and lives entirely by his own rules. He turns ancient slapstick gags into offensive weapons, drives cars with his face on them (or used to), and themes his crimes around strange things that amuse him or tickle his obsessions, such as clowns, playing cards, and, oh yes, fish. There are zillions of crazed maniacs running around the world of comics; he stands out from them because he's uniquely peculiar - if you make him all 'murder murder death kill' all the time, you sacrifice that, and make him generic.
Well, there was a Pre-Crisis story where Joker thought that Pengers had been murdered, and seemed genuinely upset about it, to

[psychopathicus]

Yes!

To go back to te wrestling terms, the Joker here reminds me too much of Triple H. He refuses to put anyone over, he makes everyone else look like a chump, and at this point even if Batman somehow manages to lay a finger on the guy, is there going to be any real comeuppnace for the Joker?

It's like Triple H being written by Triple H and Kevin Nash.
-Nobody

[1mercystreet]

Oh dear. No. No, I don't like this at all.

Harvey might not be an extrovert like Joker or a social engineer like Penguin, but I have a hard time thinking that the other Rogues don't respect him. As you've pointed out, he was an incredibly good lawyer, and he had the ability to inspire people and change the criminal horizon of the city forever. The very fact he can go from being a respected public servant to a crime boss with a sizeable chunk of the underworld in his pocket should be proof of that.

Also, Harvey wouldn't be Joker's favourite fall guy if there wasn't something about him that was still uncorrupted and unbroken. Mister J might frequently try to needle Harvey into full-on insanity but I suspect that if he ever suceeded, he'd lose interest in Harvey completely, in part because there would be nothing left to break. At the same time If Harvey was really nothing, and wasn't worthy of respect, I don't think he would register on Joker's radar at all. He'd just be an anonymous, broken madman that Joker wouldn't see as worthy of

[about_faces]

As you've pointed out, he was an incredibly good lawyer, and he had the ability to inspire people and change the criminal horizon of the city forever.

Totally. Between his brilliance and charisma (and maybe also his ability to help keep his peers from going to Blackgate or worse), they may not LIKE him, but he would certainly be far more than tolerated.

And I agree with the second paragraph 100%. If that part of Harvey weren't still in there somewhere, the Joker wouldn't even care!