Okay, now for my disagreements. First, there's this: it's like watching the same person get with themselvesI actually don't think Spike and Faith are like the same character. Most of their similarities are external; internally Spike is MUCH more like Buffy than Faith. The similarities between Spike and Buffy show in their external behavior, too; it's just not as immediately apparent as the Spike/Faith similarities. So I'm not opposed to ships where the characters have similar personalities, or I wouldn't ship Spuffy. What matters is the way those similarities come together:do they complement each other or do they blend too much and stagnate? With S/F, while they aren't as alike as they seem, they do *appear* the same. They may be alike more on the outside than the inside, but it's their outside behavior that affects our impression of them and how they interact. Even if the similarities are superficial, they *look* too similar, and that makes for a bland ship. I like them as friends, but I don't like shipping
( ... )
Now, about Chosen. I still fully believe Buffy really loved Spike(though I don't mind if you don't see it that way). She wouldn't have such a hard time getting the words out if it wasn't authentic, and what would be the point of flaming hands symbolism if she didn't mean it
( ... )
I know the comics portray her feelings for Spike very differently from the show, and for a while it caused me to look at Spuffy in the show differently, too. I no longer do, though, because of what I said earlier about seeing the comics as just a fun pet project for Joss rather than a true continuation given the same serious artistic attention he approached the show with. What I think happened is this: Joss really did intent for Spuffy to be the love story we thought we saw, he just didn't want to continue the story beyond S7. He doesn't want to write about Buffy being happy and in a healthy relationship; that bores him. So he fully meant for Buffy to love Spike, but that was supposed to be the last season. When he later decided to continue the story in comics, he had to backpedal and pretend S7 basically didn't happen so he didn't have to write about Spuffy in a way that was natural for where they left off. He doesn't have a problem reuniting Bangel because he never intended that ship to go anywhere in the first place, it's just a
( ... )
Again, you make sense to me. It does sound like that may have happened. I just hate that we don't have anything to tell us what is what. I can see that Joss may have wanted to have the love story he intended in season 7 but his thoughtlessness in some of his decisions really, I believe, hurt it.
For season 8 to be canon to Joss (which the more I think about it the more I think it was just a fun romp for Joss and to get out ideas he wanted to do that just didn't feel right otherwise. Like he wanted to get bander "off his chest") you'd have to try to reconcile season 7. And it make-y no sense-y in any sort of natural way. But yeah, I can agree with lots in that first paragraph.
The thing is, even if it's fan service, he put it in. It derailed the spuffy arc for me. I think it was too thoughtless and too much because it served no narrative purpose unless it was to cast doubt on Buffy's feelings for Spike. This is one of the things I think Joss' brain skipped town on, because he thought on too superficial level without actually thinking
( ... )
Joss may have wanted to have the love story he intended in season 7 but his thoughtlessness in some of his decisions really, I believe, hurt it.
Yeah, I can see that. I just don't think he did any damage to it that is irrepairable *in the show*. It's just the comics that send everything to hell in a handbasket, and I don't see those as a true continuation.
The thing is, even if it's fan service, he put it in. It derailed the spuffy arc for me. I think it was too thoughtless and too much because it served no narrative purpose unless it was to cast doubt on Buffy's feelings for SpikeI really think that scene had no business being there and is,frankly,bad writing. You're right that it serves no narrative purpose. That was the point I was trying to make; I don't see it as casting doubt on her feelings because it's just empty fanservice that doesn't attempt to say anything about the story except that see still has feelings for Angel, and as I said above you can love more than one person at the same time. But I understand if you don't see
( ... )
I agree. It's not completely irreparable on the show. Unfortunately the show ended and didn't give us anything else that we can really go on. And of course I completely agree with you about the comics
( ... )
the show ended and didn't give us anything else that we can really go on
I think that's where we differ. I don't actually *need* anything post-show to go on to determine Buffy's feelings. I'm satisfied with the way I read the show. Though, I can see why other people would want more.
I agree with you in the fact that because we know that Bangel kiss scene was fan service and that because it really served no purpose that we should be able to dismiss it
Ah, I wasn't clear there. I actually don't dismiss the kiss. I don't think it's irrelevant, I think she does still have some feelings for Angel. What I was trying to say is that it doesn't mean he is her One True Love or anything like that, or that she doesn't love Spike.
But I have to wonder, if Joss is a great writer, shouldn't he have seen this coming? Or seen this angle? Or is he really this careless? He insisted on the AR, so maybe he is that careless, but the since the text is what we have to go on it's forever frustrating.I think he's careless about a lot of things. I also
( ... )
Though, I can see why other people would want more.
Oh, I want to feel what you feel, trust me. It's just so hard now. It's that whole, once seen, cannot unsee thing. Now that I've read things in another POV, I just need some kind of affirmation that Buffy meant that ILU in a romantic, honest way.
I think he's careless about a lot of things. I also think it's too simplistic to say he's a great writer; he's very hit-or-miss. Sometimes he's incredible, but other times he makes you headdesk. But yes, it's frustrating.
Word! I agree 250%!
The way I read it is that she had been falling in love for some time by then, but she also had some lingering feelings for Angel because she had never dealt with them. Bangel ended in such a way that she was never given the opportunity to resolve her feelings. Even so, she still chose to stop basking with Angel and went back to Spike.Thanks for the clarification! And if that is the case, she should really resolve her feelings for Angel. I get that a part of her will always love and care for Angel to
( ... )
I think what ticked me off with that scene (kissing Angel) is that the writers saw Buffy as being with Spike. Now, the viewers didn't see it that way. We knew there was a connection and they were growing close and that maybe they would be together if Spike didn't die...yet, we get this kissing scene.
Don't get me wrong, I hate that scene with a passion. It has no business being there. I just don't think it ruins Spuffy. But yeah, it's bad writing and ticks me off.
If you love someone else other than the person you are supposedly with, it doesn't seem right to go kissing the exes. I've related to Buffy on numerous occasions and Buffy does seem to have very strong convictions. I've always admired that about her. And if she isn't ready for a relationship or love, that's okay too. In fact, I love the idea of her being her own woman and not needing a man. For her to kiss Angel if the writers saw her with Spike lends me to believe that they are not really writing the Buffy I know. Or thought I know. It felt more like the writers thought
( ... )
Don't get me wrong, I hate that scene with a passion. It has no business being there. I just don't think it ruins Spuffy. But yeah, it's bad writing and ticks me off.
Perhaps though maybe it wasn't fear of romantic love, but just fear of loving period. She could love Dawn and Giles, Willow and Xander, but those people were safe to love. Finally opening herself to other people may been closer to what type of love Buffy was afraid of.
Yeah, that's part of what I was trying to say but didn't clarify. It's definitely opening up to people that she fears, but she has this problem especially with romantic relationships because of her past experiences with them. She fears opening her heart to a lover more than she fears it with family/friends because those are the relationships that burned her(especially Angel), but I agree that Chosen is about learning to open herself to love in general, not just romantically.
you could say that she wasn't afraid to finally love romantically again (though I would argue that she might have already loved Riley and that she wasn't just afraid of romantic love) and to finally say it, but there really wasn't actual feelings of love to back
( ... )
Shot, I didn't clarify very well. I meant, Buffy meant the ILU but not romantically. You're right, if she didn't mean it in some way than there wouldn't be any meaning to it. And no resolution.
Agree on Riley.
Fan wank can be fun and I admire people who have been fan wanking for years since the end of the show (10 years). I've only been doing it for 2 years and it's exhausting. The odd thing, as I've said before, I saw it your way after my first watch through back in 2010. It's only after time and re-watching and seeing what Joss did with the comics, and reading a lot of discussion on the matter that have changed my perception.
I wrote a huge post on Buffy loving Spike back before season 9 really got into it on Buffy forums. I was really adamant about it.
I've kinda of lost Buffy's arc I admit. Perhaps I need to re-watch the show.
No, I don't think it's permanent damage. I'm dismissing the comics more each day. And I still love Spuffy.
Ah, you know, I actually agree completely with you on this and I think I didn't make myself clear.
I really agree that Spike and Buffy are the same deep down and that Spike and Faith are different deep down, but how they are on the outside is what I was referring to. So yes, S/F blend instead of complement each other.
Oh, I'd love Faith and Spike to be friends, they'd be cool. I'm just talking romantically. Actually, I'd like all the good guys to be friends with each other in perfect world. =p
And I really wish DH would let Spike interact with characters from the show who aren't Buffy. I know there's the A&F issue coming up, but that's a one-shot and I want him to interact with the Scoobies. I don't care about him interacting with Angel, so that leaves Faith. Anyway, there's no reason they *couldn't* have had him interact with the Scoobs in S9, but outside of Buffy they seem to want to restrict him to OCs. Sigh.
Oh gosh yes! I got to the point where I almost didn't care about the spuffy and wanted to see scenes with Dawn and Xander. Especially with Dawn.
I also don't care about seeing him interact with Angel. I have this sinking feeling they are going to use Spike to make Angel look good. And really, we've gone through season 5 of AtS with Angel and Spike. I'd like to see Spike interact with Faith too but I feel like it's going to be a disaster because I just know they'll over look the nuances of the dynamic between Faith and Spike. As I said before they're probably just going to play the sex angle most likely.
Please excuse my rudeness, but I can't help my eyes rolling into the back of my head.
/double Sigh and passing of the strong liqueur to make it all go away...
Okay, now for my disagreements. First, there's this:
it's like watching the same person get with themselvesI actually don't think Spike and Faith are like the same character. Most of their similarities are external; internally Spike is MUCH more like Buffy than Faith. The similarities between Spike and Buffy show in their external behavior, too; it's just not as immediately apparent as the Spike/Faith similarities. So I'm not opposed to ships where the characters have similar personalities, or I wouldn't ship Spuffy. What matters is the way those similarities come together:do they complement each other or do they blend too much and stagnate? With S/F, while they aren't as alike as they seem, they do *appear* the same. They may be alike more on the outside than the inside, but it's their outside behavior that affects our impression of them and how they interact. Even if the similarities are superficial, they *look* too similar, and that makes for a bland ship. I like them as friends, but I don't like shipping ( ... )
Reply
Reply
Reply
For season 8 to be canon to Joss (which the more I think about it the more I think it was just a fun romp for Joss and to get out ideas he wanted to do that just didn't feel right otherwise. Like he wanted to get bander "off his chest") you'd have to try to reconcile season 7. And it make-y no sense-y in any sort of natural way. But yeah, I can agree with lots in that first paragraph.
The thing is, even if it's fan service, he put it in. It derailed the spuffy arc for me. I think it was too thoughtless and too much because it served no narrative purpose unless it was to cast doubt on Buffy's feelings for Spike. This is one of the things I think Joss' brain skipped town on, because he thought on too superficial level without actually thinking ( ... )
Reply
Yeah, I can see that. I just don't think he did any damage to it that is irrepairable *in the show*. It's just the comics that send everything to hell in a handbasket, and I don't see those as a true continuation.
The thing is, even if it's fan service, he put it in. It derailed the spuffy arc for me. I think it was too thoughtless and too much because it served no narrative purpose unless it was to cast doubt on Buffy's feelings for SpikeI really think that scene had no business being there and is,frankly,bad writing. You're right that it serves no narrative purpose. That was the point I was trying to make; I don't see it as casting doubt on her feelings because it's just empty fanservice that doesn't attempt to say anything about the story except that see still has feelings for Angel, and as I said above you can love more than one person at the same time. But I understand if you don't see ( ... )
Reply
Reply
I think that's where we differ. I don't actually *need* anything post-show to go on to determine Buffy's feelings. I'm satisfied with the way I read the show. Though, I can see why other people would want more.
I agree with you in the fact that because we know that Bangel kiss scene was fan service and that because it really served no purpose that we should be able to dismiss it
Ah, I wasn't clear there. I actually don't dismiss the kiss. I don't think it's irrelevant, I think she does still have some feelings for Angel. What I was trying to say is that it doesn't mean he is her One True Love or anything like that, or that she doesn't love Spike.
But I have to wonder, if Joss is a great writer, shouldn't he have seen this coming? Or seen this angle? Or is he really this careless? He insisted on the AR, so maybe he is that careless, but the since the text is what we have to go on it's forever frustrating.I think he's careless about a lot of things. I also ( ... )
Reply
Oh, I want to feel what you feel, trust me. It's just so hard now. It's that whole, once seen, cannot unsee thing. Now that I've read things in another POV, I just need some kind of affirmation that Buffy meant that ILU in a romantic, honest way.
I think he's careless about a lot of things. I also think it's too simplistic to say he's a great writer; he's very hit-or-miss. Sometimes he's incredible, but other times he makes you headdesk. But yes, it's frustrating.
Word! I agree 250%!
The way I read it is that she had been falling in love for some time by then, but she also had some lingering feelings for Angel because she had never dealt with them. Bangel ended in such a way that she was never given the opportunity to resolve her feelings. Even so, she still chose to stop basking with Angel and went back to Spike.Thanks for the clarification! And if that is the case, she should really resolve her feelings for Angel. I get that a part of her will always love and care for Angel to ( ... )
Reply
Don't get me wrong, I hate that scene with a passion. It has no business being there. I just don't think it ruins Spuffy. But yeah, it's bad writing and ticks me off.
If you love someone else other than the person you are supposedly with, it doesn't seem right to go kissing the exes. I've related to Buffy on numerous occasions and Buffy does seem to have very strong convictions. I've always admired that about her. And if she isn't ready for a relationship or love, that's okay too. In fact, I love the idea of her being her own woman and not needing a man. For her to kiss Angel if the writers saw her with Spike lends me to believe that they are not really writing the Buffy I know. Or thought I know. It felt more like the writers thought ( ... )
Reply
( ... )
Reply
Reply
Perhaps though maybe it wasn't fear of romantic love, but just fear of loving period. She could love Dawn and Giles, Willow and Xander, but those people were safe to love. Finally opening herself to other people may been closer to what type of love Buffy was afraid of.
Yeah, that's part of what I was trying to say but didn't clarify. It's definitely opening up to people that she fears, but she has this problem especially with romantic relationships because of her past experiences with them. She fears opening her heart to a lover more than she fears it with family/friends because those are the relationships that burned her(especially Angel), but I agree that Chosen is about learning to open herself to love in general, not just romantically.
you could say that she wasn't afraid to finally love romantically again (though I would argue that she might have already loved Riley and that she wasn't just afraid of romantic love) and to finally say it, but there really wasn't actual feelings of love to back ( ... )
Reply
Agree on Riley.
Fan wank can be fun and I admire people who have been fan wanking for years since the end of the show (10 years). I've only been doing it for 2 years and it's exhausting. The odd thing, as I've said before, I saw it your way after my first watch through back in 2010. It's only after time and re-watching and seeing what Joss did with the comics, and reading a lot of discussion on the matter that have changed my perception.
I wrote a huge post on Buffy loving Spike back before season 9 really got into it on Buffy forums. I was really adamant about it.
I've kinda of lost Buffy's arc I admit. Perhaps I need to re-watch the show.
No, I don't think it's permanent damage. I'm dismissing the comics more each day. And I still love Spuffy.
Thank you for your worry though! ;)
Reply
I really agree that Spike and Buffy are the same deep down and that Spike and Faith are different deep down, but how they are on the outside is what I was referring to. So yes, S/F blend instead of complement each other.
Oh, I'd love Faith and Spike to be friends, they'd be cool. I'm just talking romantically. Actually, I'd like all the good guys to be friends with each other in perfect world. =p
Reply
And I really wish DH would let Spike interact with characters from the show who aren't Buffy. I know there's the A&F issue coming up, but that's a one-shot and I want him to interact with the Scoobies. I don't care about him interacting with Angel, so that leaves Faith. Anyway, there's no reason they *couldn't* have had him interact with the Scoobs in S9, but outside of Buffy they seem to want to restrict him to OCs. Sigh.
Reply
Oh gosh yes! I got to the point where I almost didn't care about the spuffy and wanted to see scenes with Dawn and Xander. Especially with Dawn.
I also don't care about seeing him interact with Angel. I have this sinking feeling they are going to use Spike to make Angel look good. And really, we've gone through season 5 of AtS with Angel and Spike. I'd like to see Spike interact with Faith too but I feel like it's going to be a disaster because I just know they'll over look the nuances of the dynamic between Faith and Spike. As I said before they're probably just going to play the sex angle most likely.
Please excuse my rudeness, but I can't help my eyes rolling into the back of my head.
/double Sigh and passing of the strong liqueur to make it all go away...
Reply
Leave a comment