Now, about Chosen. I still fully believe Buffy really loved Spike(though I don't mind if you don't see it that way). She wouldn't have such a hard time getting the words out if it wasn't authentic, and what would be the point of flaming hands symbolism if she didn't mean it?
But the main reason I can't believe she didn't mean it is that it serves no narrative purpose. What's the Buffy of it? The show is all about her coming of age and the final episode has to wrap up her arc in a satisfactory way. If she did love Spike, then her emotional arc of becoming increasingly afraid of romantic love and hardening herself is resolved, as it would mean she had finally overcome her fear and allowed herself to love again. It's especially fitting that she does so with a vampire since the trauma Angel caused is what set her on this path, and it has been noted before how Spike getting a soul for Buffy because he loved her is the opposite of Angel losing his for the same reason. For her love Spike(and I don't think it's a coincidence that those are her last words on the show, for the reason just stated)wraps everything up nicely.
However, if she *doesn't* mean the ILU in Chosen, what is the point? How does it serve Buffy's arc? Nothing is resolved, she's still stuck exactly where she's been all this time, so why go that route? Why bother even developing Spuffy at all? She spent at least the last season getting closer to Spike for the sake of.....nothing? Why?
I know the comics portray her feelings for Spike very differently from the show, and for a while it caused me to look at Spuffy in the show differently, too. I no longer do, though, because of what I said earlier about seeing the comics as just a fun pet project for Joss rather than a true continuation given the same serious artistic attention he approached the show with. What I think happened is this: Joss really did intent for Spuffy to be the love story we thought we saw, he just didn't want to continue the story beyond S7. He doesn't want to write about Buffy being happy and in a healthy relationship; that bores him. So he fully meant for Buffy to love Spike, but that was supposed to be the last season. When he later decided to continue the story in comics, he had to backpedal and pretend S7 basically didn't happen so he didn't have to write about Spuffy in a way that was natural for where they left off. He doesn't have a problem reuniting Bangel because he never intended that ship to go anywhere in the first place, it's just a mechanism to create epic ANGST and DRAMA for Buffy(and the fans). The whole point of Bangel is that it's doomed, there's no chance of it becoming a happy,fulfilling relationship so it's "safe" for him to keep bringing it back as it won't change anything.
Finally, about that kiss. I don't think it means she didn't love Spike since you can love more than one person at the same time. Besides, it was just fanservice. Yes, hugging him would have made more sense, but it wouldn't have satisfied the Bangels so it would have been pointless from a Doyleist POV. The ONLY reason Angel appeared in the last two episodes was to make Bangels happy, so if he was going to be there it had to be a kiss or nothing. So I wouldn't take it too seriously. Hope that helps you feel better, and thanks for friending me :)
Again, you make sense to me. It does sound like that may have happened. I just hate that we don't have anything to tell us what is what. I can see that Joss may have wanted to have the love story he intended in season 7 but his thoughtlessness in some of his decisions really, I believe, hurt it.
For season 8 to be canon to Joss (which the more I think about it the more I think it was just a fun romp for Joss and to get out ideas he wanted to do that just didn't feel right otherwise. Like he wanted to get bander "off his chest") you'd have to try to reconcile season 7. And it make-y no sense-y in any sort of natural way. But yeah, I can agree with lots in that first paragraph.
The thing is, even if it's fan service, he put it in. It derailed the spuffy arc for me. I think it was too thoughtless and too much because it served no narrative purpose unless it was to cast doubt on Buffy's feelings for Spike. This is one of the things I think Joss' brain skipped town on, because he thought on too superficial level without actually thinking of the repercussions of this choice for fan service. Same with Twilight, the AR, Xander summoning Sweets (it's a joke right?), etc. I have to take it serious because the show takes it serious. Maybe I'm thinking too deep into the meaning though.
oh, and you are very welcome! Thank you for wanting to be my friend! :3
Joss may have wanted to have the love story he intended in season 7 but his thoughtlessness in some of his decisions really, I believe, hurt it.
Yeah, I can see that. I just don't think he did any damage to it that is irrepairable *in the show*. It's just the comics that send everything to hell in a handbasket, and I don't see those as a true continuation.
The thing is, even if it's fan service, he put it in. It derailed the spuffy arc for me. I think it was too thoughtless and too much because it served no narrative purpose unless it was to cast doubt on Buffy's feelings for Spike
I really think that scene had no business being there and is,frankly,bad writing. You're right that it serves no narrative purpose. That was the point I was trying to make; I don't see it as casting doubt on her feelings because it's just empty fanservice that doesn't attempt to say anything about the story except that see still has feelings for Angel, and as I said above you can love more than one person at the same time. But I understand if you don't see it that way, this is just my subjective view.
ITA that Joss doesn't think a lot of things through, the Bangel kiss included. It boggles my mind how someone who can be such a talented writer can also be such a careless one.
oh, and you are very welcome! Thank you for wanting to be my friend! :3
I agree. It's not completely irreparable on the show. Unfortunately the show ended and didn't give us anything else that we can really go on. And of course I completely agree with you about the comics.
I agree with you in the fact that because we know that Bangel kiss scene was fan service and that because it really served no purpose that we should be able to dismiss it. But I have to wonder, if Joss is a great writer, shouldn't he have seen this coming? Or seen this angle? Or is he really this careless? He insisted on the AR, so maybe he is that careless, but the since the text is what we have to go on it's forever frustrating.
I saw it how you see it for a long time. That we can just dismiss it because it's fan service. Yet it's part of the show and as readers don't we have to make sense of it? If we had no outside knowledge of interviews and commentary, how can we make sense of that scene without having Buffy magically fall in love with Spike the second before he dies? Unless we say she didn't love Spike until that moment, which would be close to love at first sight mentality? She loved Spike in that moment only?
I get that people can love two people at the same time. But it's extremely unfair to both Angel and Spike. Buffy, in that scene, come off as she'll always love Angel and that anyone else in the mean time is just who she is going to kill time with. Buffy should move on from Angel and from Spike. The person who she'll end up spending her life with should have her full heart (or at least be her main priority), even if Angel and Spike will always be important to her.
I think what ticked me off with that scene (kissing Angel) is that the writers saw Buffy as being with Spike. Now, the viewers didn't see it that way. We knew there was a connection and they were growing close and that maybe they would be together if Spike didn't die...yet, we get this kissing scene.
If you love someone else other than the person you are supposedly with, it doesn't seem right to go kissing the exes. I've related to Buffy on numerous occasions and Buffy does seem to have very strong convictions. I've always admired that about her. And if she isn't ready for a relationship or love, that's okay too. In fact, I love the idea of her being her own woman and not needing a man. For her to kiss Angel if the writers saw her with Spike lends me to believe that they are not really writing the Buffy I know. Or thought I know. It felt more like the writers thought, "Well we screwed up with Spike and Buffy, let's go back to Buffy and Angel as the main love story."
Let's say she was with Riley at this point instead of Spike, and they were together. Buffy kissing Angel would be almost a betrayal, even if Buffy still loved Angel. I don't like painting Buffy in that light at all. And that revelation would have needed more time to develop.
So I guess we are back with really bad writing. And I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. However I do believe you make very valid points and have caused me to rethink it some more. Though thinking it bad writing also diminishes it just as much as thinking Buffy didn't love Spike.
I just wish I had a time machine and went back in time to tell Joss the dangers of careless writing and the impact it has overall.
I really appreciate this discussion by the way. Thank you.
ITA that Joss doesn't think a lot of things through, the Bangel kiss included. It boggles my mind how someone who can be such a talented writer can also be such a careless one.
Oh, gosh me too! It really amazes me how sometimes he can really just take your breath away and then the next leave you disgusted by the bad writing. I think, from what I've seen, is that Joss, while a great and innovate guy, is only as good as the team he is with. If he has a great team, Joss shines, if his team is lacking, on his own he loses his way. His re-writes on other peoples scripts are sometimes fantastic but sometimes his fully done scripts leave you feeling that something is lacking.
the show ended and didn't give us anything else that we can really go on
I think that's where we differ. I don't actually *need* anything post-show to go on to determine Buffy's feelings. I'm satisfied with the way I read the show. Though, I can see why other people would want more.
I agree with you in the fact that because we know that Bangel kiss scene was fan service and that because it really served no purpose that we should be able to dismiss it
Ah, I wasn't clear there. I actually don't dismiss the kiss. I don't think it's irrelevant, I think she does still have some feelings for Angel. What I was trying to say is that it doesn't mean he is her One True Love or anything like that, or that she doesn't love Spike.
But I have to wonder, if Joss is a great writer, shouldn't he have seen this coming? Or seen this angle? Or is he really this careless? He insisted on the AR, so maybe he is that careless, but the since the text is what we have to go on it's forever frustrating.
I think he's careless about a lot of things. I also think it's too simplistic to say he's a great writer; he's very hit-or-miss. Sometimes he's incredible, but other times he makes you headdesk. But yes, it's frustrating.
If we had no outside knowledge of interviews and commentary, how can we make sense of that scene without having Buffy magically fall in love with Spike the second before he dies?
The way I read it is that she had been falling in love for some time by then, but she also had some lingering feelings for Angel because she had never dealt with them. Bangel ended in such a way that she was never given the opportunity to resolve her feelings. Even so, she still chose to stop basking with Angel and went back to Spike.
I get that people can love two people at the same time. But it's extremely unfair to both Angel and Spike. Buffy, in that scene, come off as she'll always love Angel and that anyone else in the mean time is just who she is going to kill time with.
I agree that it's unfair. Although, I don't think she comes off as always loving Angel. I think she comes off as *idealizing* him. She might *think* she'll always love him *in that moment*, but that's just how she is. She lives and experiences her feelings completely in the present. She thinks that how she feels at any given moment is how she will always feel and doesn't look to the future.
Though, I can see why other people would want more.
Oh, I want to feel what you feel, trust me. It's just so hard now. It's that whole, once seen, cannot unsee thing. Now that I've read things in another POV, I just need some kind of affirmation that Buffy meant that ILU in a romantic, honest way.
I think he's careless about a lot of things. I also think it's too simplistic to say he's a great writer; he's very hit-or-miss. Sometimes he's incredible, but other times he makes you headdesk. But yes, it's frustrating.
Word! I agree 250%!
The way I read it is that she had been falling in love for some time by then, but she also had some lingering feelings for Angel because she had never dealt with them. Bangel ended in such a way that she was never given the opportunity to resolve her feelings. Even so, she still chose to stop basking with Angel and went back to Spike.
Thanks for the clarification! And if that is the case, she should really resolve her feelings for Angel. I get that a part of her will always love and care for Angel to a certain extent. That's fine. But she should move on from Angel and the basking. And she should resolve any feelings for Spike too if she has them. I just all of them should move on unless two of them make an active effort to be with each other.
She thinks that how she feels at any given moment is how she will always feel and doesn't look to the future.
I haven't actually gotten that from her too much. Maybe a little and only around Angel. I probably should do a re-watch of the series soon.
I think what ticked me off with that scene (kissing Angel) is that the writers saw Buffy as being with Spike. Now, the viewers didn't see it that way. We knew there was a connection and they were growing close and that maybe they would be together if Spike didn't die...yet, we get this kissing scene.
Don't get me wrong, I hate that scene with a passion. It has no business being there. I just don't think it ruins Spuffy. But yeah, it's bad writing and ticks me off.
If you love someone else other than the person you are supposedly with, it doesn't seem right to go kissing the exes. I've related to Buffy on numerous occasions and Buffy does seem to have very strong convictions. I've always admired that about her. And if she isn't ready for a relationship or love, that's okay too. In fact, I love the idea of her being her own woman and not needing a man. For her to kiss Angel if the writers saw her with Spike lends me to believe that they are not really writing the Buffy I know. Or thought I know. It felt more like the writers thought, "Well we screwed up with Spike and Buffy, let's go back to Buffy and Angel as the main love story."Let's say she was with Riley at this point instead of Spike, and they were together. Buffy kissing Angel would be almost a betrayal, even if Buffy still loved Angel. I don't like painting Buffy in that light at all. And that revelation would have needed more time to develop.
I agree it isn't right to kiss your ex while in love with someone else, but while Buffy has strong convictions, she isn't perfect. The scene doesn't read to me as the writers trying to go back to Bangel, just throwing the shippers a bone. I do think you're right about it being almost a betrayal, but I can forgive her since she does feel bad about it. Just IMO.
So I guess we are back with really bad writing. And I guess we'll have to agree to disagree
It's ok to disagree :) And I do think it was really bad writing, just FYI.
I just wish I had a time machine and went back in time to tell Joss the dangers of careless writing and the impact it has overall.
I doubt he'd listen, unfortunately. But listening to the Chosen commentary, he sounds like he really didn't want that scene there. It leads me to suspect it was forced by the network.
Oh, gosh me too! It really amazes me how sometimes he can really just take your breath away and then the next leave you disgusted by the bad writing. I think, from what I've seen, is that Joss, while a great and innovate guy, is only as good as the team he is with. If he has a great team, Joss shines, if his team is lacking, on his own he loses his way. His re-writes on other peoples scripts are sometimes fantastic but sometimes his fully done scripts leave you feeling that something is lacking.
Heh, word :)
I really appreciate this discussion by the way. Thank you.
Don't get me wrong, I hate that scene with a passion. It has no business being there. I just don't think it ruins Spuffy. But yeah, it's bad writing and ticks me off.
I can forgive her since she does feel bad about it. Just IMO.
Oh, I can forgive Buffy. I'm more upset at the writers.
I doubt he'd listen, unfortunately. But listening to the Chosen commentary, he sounds like he really didn't want that scene there. It leads me to suspect it was forced by the network.
That would be nice. I seriously wonder what's in Joss' brain sometimes, because while he says something, you get the feeling that sometimes he doesn't mean what he actually says.
Sorry for the bit of lateness! I'm trying to sell my car and my work schedule isn't helping.
I totally get you. For the longest time this is the exact same thing that I believed. It does make sense for me that the ILU served to have the narrative purpose of closing off Buffy's fear of romantic love (which I could say she utilized in season 8 with Xander?). Perhaps though maybe it wasn't fear of romantic love, but just fear of loving period. She could love Dawn and Giles, Willow and Xander, but those people were safe to love. Finally opening herself to other people may been closer to what type of love Buffy was afraid of.
With me coming to see the story a bit differently and because we don't have any real clarification, you could say that she wasn't afraid to finally love romantically again (though I would argue that she might have already loved Riley and that she wasn't just afraid of romantic love) and to finally say it, but there really wasn't actual feelings of love to back it up. Spike maybe opened her heart to the idea, but not towards him. To say that she meant it (and the Buffy lover part of me wants to scream that she did) would mean that moment would have to live in a vacuum in my opinion.
Also, I feel like this is all fan wank. Joss, while he can be brilliant, sometimes he just doesn't think things through. Maybe to him she meant it in that moment and the next she didn't, but in real life it doesn't work that way and many people wouldn't believe it.
Perhaps he didn't believe Buffy's arc was over either. Just on hold? I really don't know.
But all what you said is very true, though it's hard for me to see it that way again. I want to, but it is very hard. I do believe Buffy had powerful emotions towards Spike at that time, but...
Perhaps though maybe it wasn't fear of romantic love, but just fear of loving period. She could love Dawn and Giles, Willow and Xander, but those people were safe to love. Finally opening herself to other people may been closer to what type of love Buffy was afraid of.
Yeah, that's part of what I was trying to say but didn't clarify. It's definitely opening up to people that she fears, but she has this problem especially with romantic relationships because of her past experiences with them. She fears opening her heart to a lover more than she fears it with family/friends because those are the relationships that burned her(especially Angel), but I agree that Chosen is about learning to open herself to love in general, not just romantically.
you could say that she wasn't afraid to finally love romantically again (though I would argue that she might have already loved Riley and that she wasn't just afraid of romantic love) and to finally say it, but there really wasn't actual feelings of love to back it up
I do think she probably loved Riley, but I don't think she was able to really open up to him. Anyway, it doesn't make sense to me that Chosen would be about her overcoming her fear of love and *not* have her mean it. Saying ILU is meaningless if she doesn't love the person she's saying it to. There is no emotional risk there, so saying it in such a situation doesn't suggest that she has overcome her fear. If anything it would mean she *hasn't* done so, if she can only say she loves people when she doesn't really.
Also, I feel like this is all fan wank
Well, it is :P But so is the conclusion that she did *not* love Spike. Without text to make things crystal clear, *any* interpretation is fanwanking. What I said above is just the reading that makes the most sense to me. You don't have to agree with me,though. I understand people see things differently.
Perhaps he didn't believe Buffy's arc was over either. Just on hold? I really don't know.
I don't know, either. At any rate, it had to be a conclusion for her arc *in the show*, regardless of if he wanted to do the comics back then or not. So it had to wrap things up for viewers who hadn't read the comics that didn't exist at the time, many of whom wouldn't read them even if/when they were made.
But I sympathize with how you feel. I felt that way myself for a while. I hope the comics haven't ruined the show permanently for you. Just remember it doesn't work as canon, hopefully you'll feel better about things :)
Shot, I didn't clarify very well. I meant, Buffy meant the ILU but not romantically. You're right, if she didn't mean it in some way than there wouldn't be any meaning to it. And no resolution.
Agree on Riley.
Fan wank can be fun and I admire people who have been fan wanking for years since the end of the show (10 years). I've only been doing it for 2 years and it's exhausting. The odd thing, as I've said before, I saw it your way after my first watch through back in 2010. It's only after time and re-watching and seeing what Joss did with the comics, and reading a lot of discussion on the matter that have changed my perception.
I wrote a huge post on Buffy loving Spike back before season 9 really got into it on Buffy forums. I was really adamant about it.
I've kinda of lost Buffy's arc I admit. Perhaps I need to re-watch the show.
No, I don't think it's permanent damage. I'm dismissing the comics more each day. And I still love Spuffy.
But the main reason I can't believe she didn't mean it is that it serves no narrative purpose. What's the Buffy of it? The show is all about her coming of age and the final episode has to wrap up her arc in a satisfactory way. If she did love Spike, then her emotional arc of becoming increasingly afraid of romantic love and hardening herself is resolved, as it would mean she had finally overcome her fear and allowed herself to love again. It's especially fitting that she does so with a vampire since the trauma Angel caused is what set her on this path, and it has been noted before how Spike getting a soul for Buffy because he loved her is the opposite of Angel losing his for the same reason. For her love Spike(and I don't think it's a coincidence that those are her last words on the show, for the reason just stated)wraps everything up nicely.
However, if she *doesn't* mean the ILU in Chosen, what is the point? How does it serve Buffy's arc? Nothing is resolved, she's still stuck exactly where she's been all this time, so why go that route? Why bother even developing Spuffy at all? She spent at least the last season getting closer to Spike for the sake of.....nothing? Why?
continued
Reply
Finally, about that kiss. I don't think it means she didn't love Spike since you can love more than one person at the same time. Besides, it was just fanservice. Yes, hugging him would have made more sense, but it wouldn't have satisfied the Bangels so it would have been pointless from a Doyleist POV. The ONLY reason Angel appeared in the last two episodes was to make Bangels happy, so if he was going to be there it had to be a kiss or nothing. So I wouldn't take it too seriously. Hope that helps you feel better, and thanks for friending me :)
Reply
For season 8 to be canon to Joss (which the more I think about it the more I think it was just a fun romp for Joss and to get out ideas he wanted to do that just didn't feel right otherwise. Like he wanted to get bander "off his chest") you'd have to try to reconcile season 7. And it make-y no sense-y in any sort of natural way. But yeah, I can agree with lots in that first paragraph.
The thing is, even if it's fan service, he put it in. It derailed the spuffy arc for me. I think it was too thoughtless and too much because it served no narrative purpose unless it was to cast doubt on Buffy's feelings for Spike. This is one of the things I think Joss' brain skipped town on, because he thought on too superficial level without actually thinking of the repercussions of this choice for fan service. Same with Twilight, the AR, Xander summoning Sweets (it's a joke right?), etc. I have to take it serious because the show takes it serious. Maybe I'm thinking too deep into the meaning though.
oh, and you are very welcome! Thank you for wanting to be my friend! :3
Reply
Yeah, I can see that. I just don't think he did any damage to it that is irrepairable *in the show*. It's just the comics that send everything to hell in a handbasket, and I don't see those as a true continuation.
The thing is, even if it's fan service, he put it in. It derailed the spuffy arc for me. I think it was too thoughtless and too much because it served no narrative purpose unless it was to cast doubt on Buffy's feelings for Spike
I really think that scene had no business being there and is,frankly,bad writing. You're right that it serves no narrative purpose. That was the point I was trying to make; I don't see it as casting doubt on her feelings because it's just empty fanservice that doesn't attempt to say anything about the story except that see still has feelings for Angel, and as I said above you can love more than one person at the same time. But I understand if you don't see it that way, this is just my subjective view.
ITA that Joss doesn't think a lot of things through, the Bangel kiss included. It boggles my mind how someone who can be such a talented writer can also be such a careless one.
oh, and you are very welcome! Thank you for wanting to be my friend! :3
:)
Reply
I agree with you in the fact that because we know that Bangel kiss scene was fan service and that because it really served no purpose that we should be able to dismiss it. But I have to wonder, if Joss is a great writer, shouldn't he have seen this coming? Or seen this angle? Or is he really this careless? He insisted on the AR, so maybe he is that careless, but the since the text is what we have to go on it's forever frustrating.
I saw it how you see it for a long time. That we can just dismiss it because it's fan service. Yet it's part of the show and as readers don't we have to make sense of it? If we had no outside knowledge of interviews and commentary, how can we make sense of that scene without having Buffy magically fall in love with Spike the second before he dies? Unless we say she didn't love Spike until that moment, which would be close to love at first sight mentality? She loved Spike in that moment only?
I get that people can love two people at the same time. But it's extremely unfair to both Angel and Spike. Buffy, in that scene, come off as she'll always love Angel and that anyone else in the mean time is just who she is going to kill time with. Buffy should move on from Angel and from Spike. The person who she'll end up spending her life with should have her full heart (or at least be her main priority), even if Angel and Spike will always be important to her.
I think what ticked me off with that scene (kissing Angel) is that the writers saw Buffy as being with Spike. Now, the viewers didn't see it that way. We knew there was a connection and they were growing close and that maybe they would be together if Spike didn't die...yet, we get this kissing scene.
If you love someone else other than the person you are supposedly with, it doesn't seem right to go kissing the exes. I've related to Buffy on numerous occasions and Buffy does seem to have very strong convictions. I've always admired that about her. And if she isn't ready for a relationship or love, that's okay too. In fact, I love the idea of her being her own woman and not needing a man. For her to kiss Angel if the writers saw her with Spike lends me to believe that they are not really writing the Buffy I know. Or thought I know. It felt more like the writers thought, "Well we screwed up with Spike and Buffy, let's go back to Buffy and Angel as the main love story."
Let's say she was with Riley at this point instead of Spike, and they were together. Buffy kissing Angel would be almost a betrayal, even if Buffy still loved Angel. I don't like painting Buffy in that light at all. And that revelation would have needed more time to develop.
So I guess we are back with really bad writing. And I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. However I do believe you make very valid points and have caused me to rethink it some more. Though thinking it bad writing also diminishes it just as much as thinking Buffy didn't love Spike.
I just wish I had a time machine and went back in time to tell Joss the dangers of careless writing and the impact it has overall.
I really appreciate this discussion by the way. Thank you.
ITA that Joss doesn't think a lot of things through, the Bangel kiss included. It boggles my mind how someone who can be such a talented writer can also be such a careless one.
Oh, gosh me too! It really amazes me how sometimes he can really just take your breath away and then the next leave you disgusted by the bad writing. I think, from what I've seen, is that Joss, while a great and innovate guy, is only as good as the team he is with. If he has a great team, Joss shines, if his team is lacking, on his own he loses his way. His re-writes on other peoples scripts are sometimes fantastic but sometimes his fully done scripts leave you feeling that something is lacking.
Reply
I think that's where we differ. I don't actually *need* anything post-show to go on to determine Buffy's feelings. I'm satisfied with the way I read the show. Though, I can see why other people would want more.
I agree with you in the fact that because we know that Bangel kiss scene was fan service and that because it really served no purpose that we should be able to dismiss it
Ah, I wasn't clear there. I actually don't dismiss the kiss. I don't think it's irrelevant, I think she does still have some feelings for Angel. What I was trying to say is that it doesn't mean he is her One True Love or anything like that, or that she doesn't love Spike.
But I have to wonder, if Joss is a great writer, shouldn't he have seen this coming? Or seen this angle? Or is he really this careless? He insisted on the AR, so maybe he is that careless, but the since the text is what we have to go on it's forever frustrating.
I think he's careless about a lot of things. I also think it's too simplistic to say he's a great writer; he's very hit-or-miss. Sometimes he's incredible, but other times he makes you headdesk. But yes, it's frustrating.
If we had no outside knowledge of interviews and commentary, how can we make sense of that scene without having Buffy magically fall in love with Spike the second before he dies?
The way I read it is that she had been falling in love for some time by then, but she also had some lingering feelings for Angel because she had never dealt with them. Bangel ended in such a way that she was never given the opportunity to resolve her feelings. Even so, she still chose to stop basking with Angel and went back to Spike.
I get that people can love two people at the same time. But it's extremely unfair to both Angel and Spike. Buffy, in that scene, come off as she'll always love Angel and that anyone else in the mean time is just who she is going to kill time with.
I agree that it's unfair. Although, I don't think she comes off as always loving Angel. I think she comes off as *idealizing* him. She might *think* she'll always love him *in that moment*, but that's just how she is. She lives and experiences her feelings completely in the present. She thinks that how she feels at any given moment is how she will always feel and doesn't look to the future.
Reply
Oh, I want to feel what you feel, trust me. It's just so hard now. It's that whole, once seen, cannot unsee thing. Now that I've read things in another POV, I just need some kind of affirmation that Buffy meant that ILU in a romantic, honest way.
I think he's careless about a lot of things. I also think it's too simplistic to say he's a great writer; he's very hit-or-miss. Sometimes he's incredible, but other times he makes you headdesk. But yes, it's frustrating.
Word! I agree 250%!
The way I read it is that she had been falling in love for some time by then, but she also had some lingering feelings for Angel because she had never dealt with them. Bangel ended in such a way that she was never given the opportunity to resolve her feelings. Even so, she still chose to stop basking with Angel and went back to Spike.
Thanks for the clarification! And if that is the case, she should really resolve her feelings for Angel. I get that a part of her will always love and care for Angel to a certain extent. That's fine. But she should move on from Angel and the basking. And she should resolve any feelings for Spike too if she has them. I just all of them should move on unless two of them make an active effort to be with each other.
She thinks that how she feels at any given moment is how she will always feel and doesn't look to the future.
I haven't actually gotten that from her too much. Maybe a little and only around Angel. I probably should do a re-watch of the series soon.
Reply
Don't get me wrong, I hate that scene with a passion. It has no business being there. I just don't think it ruins Spuffy. But yeah, it's bad writing and ticks me off.
If you love someone else other than the person you are supposedly with, it doesn't seem right to go kissing the exes. I've related to Buffy on numerous occasions and Buffy does seem to have very strong convictions. I've always admired that about her. And if she isn't ready for a relationship or love, that's okay too. In fact, I love the idea of her being her own woman and not needing a man. For her to kiss Angel if the writers saw her with Spike lends me to believe that they are not really writing the Buffy I know. Or thought I know. It felt more like the writers thought, "Well we screwed up with Spike and Buffy, let's go back to Buffy and Angel as the main love story."Let's say she was with Riley at this point instead of Spike, and they were together. Buffy kissing Angel would be almost a betrayal, even if Buffy still loved Angel. I don't like painting Buffy in that light at all. And that revelation would have needed more time to develop.
I agree it isn't right to kiss your ex while in love with someone else, but while Buffy has strong convictions, she isn't perfect. The scene doesn't read to me as the writers trying to go back to Bangel, just throwing the shippers a bone. I do think you're right about it being almost a betrayal, but I can forgive her since she does feel bad about it. Just IMO.
So I guess we are back with really bad writing. And I guess we'll have to agree to disagree
It's ok to disagree :) And I do think it was really bad writing, just FYI.
I just wish I had a time machine and went back in time to tell Joss the dangers of careless writing and the impact it has overall.
I doubt he'd listen, unfortunately. But listening to the Chosen commentary, he sounds like he really didn't want that scene there. It leads me to suspect it was forced by the network.
Oh, gosh me too! It really amazes me how sometimes he can really just take your breath away and then the next leave you disgusted by the bad writing. I think, from what I've seen, is that Joss, while a great and innovate guy, is only as good as the team he is with. If he has a great team, Joss shines, if his team is lacking, on his own he loses his way. His re-writes on other peoples scripts are sometimes fantastic but sometimes his fully done scripts leave you feeling that something is lacking.
Heh, word :)
I really appreciate this discussion by the way. Thank you.
:)
Reply
I can forgive her since she does feel bad about it. Just IMO.
Oh, I can forgive Buffy. I'm more upset at the writers.
I doubt he'd listen, unfortunately. But listening to the Chosen commentary, he sounds like he really didn't want that scene there. It leads me to suspect it was forced by the network.
That would be nice. I seriously wonder what's in Joss' brain sometimes, because while he says something, you get the feeling that sometimes he doesn't mean what he actually says.
\(^.^)/
Reply
I totally get you. For the longest time this is the exact same thing that I believed. It does make sense for me that the ILU served to have the narrative purpose of closing off Buffy's fear of romantic love (which I could say she utilized in season 8 with Xander?). Perhaps though maybe it wasn't fear of romantic love, but just fear of loving period. She could love Dawn and Giles, Willow and Xander, but those people were safe to love. Finally opening herself to other people may been closer to what type of love Buffy was afraid of.
With me coming to see the story a bit differently and because we don't have any real clarification, you could say that she wasn't afraid to finally love romantically again (though I would argue that she might have already loved Riley and that she wasn't just afraid of romantic love) and to finally say it, but there really wasn't actual feelings of love to back it up. Spike maybe opened her heart to the idea, but not towards him. To say that she meant it (and the Buffy lover part of me wants to scream that she did) would mean that moment would have to live in a vacuum in my opinion.
Also, I feel like this is all fan wank. Joss, while he can be brilliant, sometimes he just doesn't think things through. Maybe to him she meant it in that moment and the next she didn't, but in real life it doesn't work that way and many people wouldn't believe it.
Perhaps he didn't believe Buffy's arc was over either. Just on hold? I really don't know.
But all what you said is very true, though it's hard for me to see it that way again. I want to, but it is very hard. I do believe Buffy had powerful emotions towards Spike at that time, but...
Reply
Perhaps though maybe it wasn't fear of romantic love, but just fear of loving period. She could love Dawn and Giles, Willow and Xander, but those people were safe to love. Finally opening herself to other people may been closer to what type of love Buffy was afraid of.
Yeah, that's part of what I was trying to say but didn't clarify. It's definitely opening up to people that she fears, but she has this problem especially with romantic relationships because of her past experiences with them. She fears opening her heart to a lover more than she fears it with family/friends because those are the relationships that burned her(especially Angel), but I agree that Chosen is about learning to open herself to love in general, not just romantically.
you could say that she wasn't afraid to finally love romantically again (though I would argue that she might have already loved Riley and that she wasn't just afraid of romantic love) and to finally say it, but there really wasn't actual feelings of love to back it up
I do think she probably loved Riley, but I don't think she was able to really open up to him. Anyway, it doesn't make sense to me that Chosen would be about her overcoming her fear of love and *not* have her mean it. Saying ILU is meaningless if she doesn't love the person she's saying it to. There is no emotional risk there, so saying it in such a situation doesn't suggest that she has overcome her fear. If anything it would mean she *hasn't* done so, if she can only say she loves people when she doesn't really.
Also, I feel like this is all fan wank
Well, it is :P But so is the conclusion that she did *not* love Spike. Without text to make things crystal clear, *any* interpretation is fanwanking. What I said above is just the reading that makes the most sense to me. You don't have to agree with me,though. I understand people see things differently.
Perhaps he didn't believe Buffy's arc was over either. Just on hold? I really don't know.
I don't know, either. At any rate, it had to be a conclusion for her arc *in the show*, regardless of if he wanted to do the comics back then or not. So it had to wrap things up for viewers who hadn't read the comics that didn't exist at the time, many of whom wouldn't read them even if/when they were made.
But I sympathize with how you feel. I felt that way myself for a while. I hope the comics haven't ruined the show permanently for you. Just remember it doesn't work as canon, hopefully you'll feel better about things :)
Reply
Agree on Riley.
Fan wank can be fun and I admire people who have been fan wanking for years since the end of the show (10 years). I've only been doing it for 2 years and it's exhausting. The odd thing, as I've said before, I saw it your way after my first watch through back in 2010. It's only after time and re-watching and seeing what Joss did with the comics, and reading a lot of discussion on the matter that have changed my perception.
I wrote a huge post on Buffy loving Spike back before season 9 really got into it on Buffy forums. I was really adamant about it.
I've kinda of lost Buffy's arc I admit. Perhaps I need to re-watch the show.
No, I don't think it's permanent damage. I'm dismissing the comics more each day. And I still love Spuffy.
Thank you for your worry though! ;)
Reply
Leave a comment