I was pissed off beyond belief, but I'm feeling a bit better now because of something unrelated.
Reposted from a non-lj private comm (Edit 10-Aug-2011: Now un-flocked because a subsequent message suggested this person actually has no excuse for the level of fail displayed, so I no longer feel I've reason to hide her presumptuous offensiveness from the rest of the world):
The part that gets me isn't the review, but the conversation that stemmed from the review.
I.
Am.
LIVID!!
Who the fuck is WrittinInStone to make assumptions about my race and then to "school" me on the proper behavior for an "I assume you're not black?" woman? Arrgggg. What the fuck, you evil toad?!?!?!?!
Story: 1C13:11
Chapter: 12. Ru1:16
From: WrittinInStone ( http://www.fanfiction.net/u/2814430/ )
Reply URL: http://login.fanfiction.net/pm/post.php?rwid=132306591
-------------------
This was really great.
I loved the way you incorporated the bible verses as titles. I don't think a
lot of people get that without being told.
I loved the way you incorporated the scenes from the movie with your story.
Awesome work.
-------------------
TeaOli wrote:
re: Your review to 1C13:11
A response to your review at http://www.fanfiction.net/r/5798613/
Thanks again! [She reviewed three of my fics in quick succession and last night sent me a PM saying that she was converting all of my fics to instapaper (whatever that means).]
You'd be surprised how many readers got the reference on their own I certainly was. One of the members of (two of) my writers groups nagged me over and over [That would be you, MJ. Maybe I should have listened!] to change the titles because she also thought no one would "get it"; I hoped that few would. She said the abbreviations read like ship designations; that pleased me to no end! But then my first ten or so readers PMed me with their "I-see-where-you're-going-with-this-you-didn't-fool-mes" and I gave it up as a lost cause until later readers said they *didn't* understand the titles. (Which mollified me just a bit.)
Tea
1hr 55mins ago
WrittenInStone wrote:
I totally understand the frustration behind that concept: sometimes readers are smarter than we give them credit for.
But I have to admit, it took me longer than I'd like to admit to figure it out. But it's awesome nevertheless. I'm going to go back and actually read the verses later. =]
Thank you for your stories. They're awesome.
1hr 53mins ago
Oh! I wasn't trying to disparage my readers' intelligence!
The only reason I hoped most wouldn't guess was because I didn't want anyone to mistake the fic as in any way religious or as an attempt to proselytize. Unfortunately, at least one reader took it as both the former and the latter, and she was disappointed to learn it wasn't all about promoting her particular religious beliefs.
I sort of felt bad about her experience because she was too young and too devout to read most of the stuff I write.
Tea
1hr 43mins ago
WrittenInStone wrote:
TeaOil:
I'm sorry if I implied that you were insulting your readers' intelligence. That was not my intention. It's just as an author myself, I sometimes underestimate my readers.
And as far as promoting a certain religion...I have found only one author who makes Uhura 'religious' (I despise that word, I feel as though it carries bad connotations.).
As a serious Christian myself, it was refreshing to read such a thing. Not just because I am a Christian, but because I'm black.
I, of course, know personally how important religion is to black people in general, and that's across the board for blacks everywhere. So, for Uhura to be an atheist, or not religiously inclined at all is highly unlikely in my book even in the face of such an advanced time.
But hey, it's fanfiction, so you take what the author gives you.
Anyway, like I said before, you're a great author. I look forward to reading more of your work.
WrittinInStone
1hr 23mins ago
TeaOli wrote:
WIS,
Oh, cool! I didn't want you to think I thought readers were stupid.
I think one can be a "serious Christian" without writing religious fanfiction. I also think it's possible to write fiction -- fan or otherwise -- without coming off as "preachy". I know of a handful of writers who have made Uhura religious, but only one has done it well. And she's received phrase which reflects that. I wonder if your author is my author.
I don't agree that religion is important "across the board" to Black people. In Uhura's case, I think it's important to remember she's African rather than African-American. I know plenty of religious Africans, but not all (or even most) of them are Christian. And I also know many who put little to no stake in religion. But closer to home, I've got several atheists in my family, though they do respect those of us who feel it's important to have a close relationship with God. One of them even changed his mind eventually!
Anyway, I went off on a bit of a tangent there. All I really wanted to say was that I feel there is a time and a place to share the Word and in my fanfiction isn't it. So, it hit me kind of hard that this particular reader had expected it. We had several later discussions about religion and what it means to be Christian, but I still didn't like knowing that she'd been disappointed.
Tea
1hr 8mins ago
WrittenInStone wrote:
Tea Oil:
I'm rolling my eyes right now. Once again, I did not imply that writing religious fanfiction and being a 'serious Christian' go hand in hand.
That would be crazy, considering my fics are not religious. Please don't place implications in my words that aren't there.
Are you black? If not, that's a tall order to contradict a black person on something that she knows. That's like me saying I know your story better than you do. And I deliberately used the term 'black' and NOT African American. In truth, you have well and truly offended me.
I assume that you are not black? Therefore, you cannot understand that there is an underlying connection among ALL black people and that among that connection is a need to identify to a higher power, in ALL black culture, just as I said before. It actually ORIGINATED in Africa which only makes since considering all life, civilization, and the basis for humanity originated there as well.
Of course not ALL black people are religious, that's why I spoke in general terms. Surely, you can understand that.
In response to your comment about atheists, you're right. You completely went on a tangent because in no way is that relevant to what we're saying.
The problem I've found with some atheists is that they're just as arrogant and inflexible as the overly religious. They are prejudiced and they do not listen, they also have little tolerance and no respect for those whose beliefs are different. You can almost say that they believe that they are superior because they do not believe the 'lies' of religion.
Of course, these are not all atheists, just a fair amount of the ones I have met.
In response to your last paragraph, there IS a time and a place to share, but when you use bible verses as your title, I cannot understand how you would be 'hit hard' that a reader would expect to read something with religious references.
As far as disappointing readers, I know I don't have to tell you to get used to it. You probably know that there are some people who just won't like your stuff.
Anyway, I'm done talking. This wasn't as...benign a conversation as I would have liked, but I guess every conversation can't be.
BTW, when someone talks about race, you don't have to automatically go on the defensive. It's a blaring tell to your feelings on the matter...mainly insecurity. But that's just my opinion.
I wish you well in the future.
WrittinInStone
42mins ago
TeaOli wrote:
WIS,
I'm sorry to learn you read what I thought was insightful discourse as a not "benign conversation." Again, I was merely attempting to clarify my position. I didn't assume that you believed or implied anything other than what you directly expressed; I simply wanted to cover all my bases to make certain *my own* views were clearer than I thought they'd been in my earlier PMs.
I am not sure how I offended you, but that was not my intention. I just like to be honest and clear. If it was the African American comment, I used it only because most of the writers I read who didn't write religious!Uhura well --heck many writers who don't do non-religious!Uhura well, for that matter -- didn't make the distinction between African and African American. And there *are* cultural differences (even among different Africans) that weren't acknowledged. I should have made it clearer that the term was directed at the depictions of writers.
If the offense *wasn't* due to my use of the term African American, I'd guess it might because you assumed you know what my race *isn't* and took exception to me speaking about some I "cannot understand."
First off, your assumption was incorrect; I *am* Black. I tout that fact all over the web as TeaOli (not Tea Oil) So, if that was the what I supposedly "did wrong", I didn't.
That means I *already know* that your opinion doesn't hold true for all Black people. It doesn't apply to to many of my relatives, or for me, for that matter. Because I happen to be a Black woman for whom having a personal relationship with God is far more important than religion, and I've got relatives who want neither. I try very hard not to use generalisations because I know my experiences -- or even the experiences of my family, friends and acquaintances -- aren't necessarily those of other people. Being Black doesn't give me a free pass to make general assumptions about the Black Experience, and it doesn't grant you a pass to do so, either.
Secondly, I was "hit hard" because while I believed, and most of my pre-readers also believed, that the abbreviations wouldn't have the same meaning for most readers as they did for me, a young woman was saddened to find out that my story wasn't what she expected. She did, however, like the story. She just wanted to read a religious fic. I don't like making kids sad. That's all there is to it.
Finally, I was not getting defensive about race. I merely wanted to point out that not all of our experiences are identical. They can't be because we're separate individuals. I think you, because you assumed I am not Black, got defensive about the topic. I understand that; I don't appreciate non-Black people telling how I should feel as a Black woman, but when dealing with people I don't know, I try not to make assumptions about the origins of their perspectives.
The following is not only based on an erroneous assumption, but it also makes use of a generalisation that just isn't factual.
"I assume that you are not black? Therefore, you cannot understand that there is an underlying connection among ALL black people and that among that connection is a need to identify to a higher power, in ALL black culture, just as I said before."
My comment about atheists was relevant because you said you couldn't imagine Uhura, a Black woman, being an atheist. I *can* imagine her as such because there are Black female atheists in my own family. And they aren't arrogant demons anymore than the male cousin who changed his views about God's existence was.
Obviously, there are several matters in which we do not agree. But I'm okay with that, so long as who I am and where I'm coming from -- a Black woman living in a place where it isn't always easy to be a Black woman whilst trying to make sense of the world around me -- isn't misconstrued or misunderstood.
I also wish you well in the future,
Tea
a moment ago
Grr!! I mean, seriously! What about my responses read as non-Black person casting aspersions on a Black person's view of themselves? And where was I judgemental? Tell me, because if I owe this woman a partial apology, I'd like to issue one. But was just so angry when I wrote my last response, I just couldn't be polite. Probably should have waited until I'd cooled off before clicking "Send."
Grrr!!!!
Oooh. Good getting that off my chest.
The part that gets me isn't the review, but the conversation that stemmed from the review.
I.
Am.
LIVID!!
Who the fuck is WrittinInStone to make assumptions about my race and then to "school" me on the proper behavior for an "I assume you're not black?" woman? Arrgggg. What the fuck, you evil toad?!?!?!?!
Story: 1C13:11
Chapter: 12. Ru1:16
From: WrittinInStone ( http://www.fanfiction.net/u/2814430/ )
Reply URL: http://login.fanfiction.net/pm/post.php?rwid=132306591
-------------------
This was really great.
I loved the way you incorporated the bible verses as titles. I don't think a
lot of people get that without being told.
I loved the way you incorporated the scenes from the movie with your story.
Awesome work.
-------------------
TeaOli wrote:
re: Your review to 1C13:11
A response to your review at http://www.fanfiction.net/r/5798613/
Thanks again! [She reviewed three of my fics in quick succession and last night sent me a PM saying that she was converting all of my fics to instapaper (whatever that means).]
You'd be surprised how many readers got the reference on their own I certainly was. One of the members of (two of) my writers groups nagged me over and over [That would be you, MJ. Maybe I should have listened!] to change the titles because she also thought no one would "get it"; I hoped that few would. She said the abbreviations read like ship designations; that pleased me to no end! But then my first ten or so readers PMed me with their "I-see-where-you're-going-with-this-you-didn't-fool-mes" and I gave it up as a lost cause until later readers said they *didn't* understand the titles. (Which mollified me just a bit.)
Tea
1hr 55mins ago
WrittenInStone wrote:
I totally understand the frustration behind that concept: sometimes readers are smarter than we give them credit for.
But I have to admit, it took me longer than I'd like to admit to figure it out. But it's awesome nevertheless. I'm going to go back and actually read the verses later. =]
Thank you for your stories. They're awesome.
1hr 53mins ago
Oh! I wasn't trying to disparage my readers' intelligence!
The only reason I hoped most wouldn't guess was because I didn't want anyone to mistake the fic as in any way religious or as an attempt to proselytize. Unfortunately, at least one reader took it as both the former and the latter, and she was disappointed to learn it wasn't all about promoting her particular religious beliefs.
I sort of felt bad about her experience because she was too young and too devout to read most of the stuff I write.
Tea
1hr 43mins ago
WrittenInStone wrote:
TeaOil:
I'm sorry if I implied that you were insulting your readers' intelligence. That was not my intention. It's just as an author myself, I sometimes underestimate my readers.
And as far as promoting a certain religion...I have found only one author who makes Uhura 'religious' (I despise that word, I feel as though it carries bad connotations.).
As a serious Christian myself, it was refreshing to read such a thing. Not just because I am a Christian, but because I'm black.
I, of course, know personally how important religion is to black people in general, and that's across the board for blacks everywhere. So, for Uhura to be an atheist, or not religiously inclined at all is highly unlikely in my book even in the face of such an advanced time.
But hey, it's fanfiction, so you take what the author gives you.
Anyway, like I said before, you're a great author. I look forward to reading more of your work.
WrittinInStone
1hr 23mins ago
TeaOli wrote:
WIS,
Oh, cool! I didn't want you to think I thought readers were stupid.
I think one can be a "serious Christian" without writing religious fanfiction. I also think it's possible to write fiction -- fan or otherwise -- without coming off as "preachy". I know of a handful of writers who have made Uhura religious, but only one has done it well. And she's received phrase which reflects that. I wonder if your author is my author.
I don't agree that religion is important "across the board" to Black people. In Uhura's case, I think it's important to remember she's African rather than African-American. I know plenty of religious Africans, but not all (or even most) of them are Christian. And I also know many who put little to no stake in religion. But closer to home, I've got several atheists in my family, though they do respect those of us who feel it's important to have a close relationship with God. One of them even changed his mind eventually!
Anyway, I went off on a bit of a tangent there. All I really wanted to say was that I feel there is a time and a place to share the Word and in my fanfiction isn't it. So, it hit me kind of hard that this particular reader had expected it. We had several later discussions about religion and what it means to be Christian, but I still didn't like knowing that she'd been disappointed.
Tea
1hr 8mins ago
WrittenInStone wrote:
Tea Oil:
I'm rolling my eyes right now. Once again, I did not imply that writing religious fanfiction and being a 'serious Christian' go hand in hand.
That would be crazy, considering my fics are not religious. Please don't place implications in my words that aren't there.
Are you black? If not, that's a tall order to contradict a black person on something that she knows. That's like me saying I know your story better than you do. And I deliberately used the term 'black' and NOT African American. In truth, you have well and truly offended me.
I assume that you are not black? Therefore, you cannot understand that there is an underlying connection among ALL black people and that among that connection is a need to identify to a higher power, in ALL black culture, just as I said before. It actually ORIGINATED in Africa which only makes since considering all life, civilization, and the basis for humanity originated there as well.
Of course not ALL black people are religious, that's why I spoke in general terms. Surely, you can understand that.
In response to your comment about atheists, you're right. You completely went on a tangent because in no way is that relevant to what we're saying.
The problem I've found with some atheists is that they're just as arrogant and inflexible as the overly religious. They are prejudiced and they do not listen, they also have little tolerance and no respect for those whose beliefs are different. You can almost say that they believe that they are superior because they do not believe the 'lies' of religion.
Of course, these are not all atheists, just a fair amount of the ones I have met.
In response to your last paragraph, there IS a time and a place to share, but when you use bible verses as your title, I cannot understand how you would be 'hit hard' that a reader would expect to read something with religious references.
As far as disappointing readers, I know I don't have to tell you to get used to it. You probably know that there are some people who just won't like your stuff.
Anyway, I'm done talking. This wasn't as...benign a conversation as I would have liked, but I guess every conversation can't be.
BTW, when someone talks about race, you don't have to automatically go on the defensive. It's a blaring tell to your feelings on the matter...mainly insecurity. But that's just my opinion.
I wish you well in the future.
WrittinInStone
42mins ago
TeaOli wrote:
WIS,
I'm sorry to learn you read what I thought was insightful discourse as a not "benign conversation." Again, I was merely attempting to clarify my position. I didn't assume that you believed or implied anything other than what you directly expressed; I simply wanted to cover all my bases to make certain *my own* views were clearer than I thought they'd been in my earlier PMs.
I am not sure how I offended you, but that was not my intention. I just like to be honest and clear. If it was the African American comment, I used it only because most of the writers I read who didn't write religious!Uhura well --heck many writers who don't do non-religious!Uhura well, for that matter -- didn't make the distinction between African and African American. And there *are* cultural differences (even among different Africans) that weren't acknowledged. I should have made it clearer that the term was directed at the depictions of writers.
If the offense *wasn't* due to my use of the term African American, I'd guess it might because you assumed you know what my race *isn't* and took exception to me speaking about some I "cannot understand."
First off, your assumption was incorrect; I *am* Black. I tout that fact all over the web as TeaOli (not Tea Oil) So, if that was the what I supposedly "did wrong", I didn't.
That means I *already know* that your opinion doesn't hold true for all Black people. It doesn't apply to to many of my relatives, or for me, for that matter. Because I happen to be a Black woman for whom having a personal relationship with God is far more important than religion, and I've got relatives who want neither. I try very hard not to use generalisations because I know my experiences -- or even the experiences of my family, friends and acquaintances -- aren't necessarily those of other people. Being Black doesn't give me a free pass to make general assumptions about the Black Experience, and it doesn't grant you a pass to do so, either.
Secondly, I was "hit hard" because while I believed, and most of my pre-readers also believed, that the abbreviations wouldn't have the same meaning for most readers as they did for me, a young woman was saddened to find out that my story wasn't what she expected. She did, however, like the story. She just wanted to read a religious fic. I don't like making kids sad. That's all there is to it.
Finally, I was not getting defensive about race. I merely wanted to point out that not all of our experiences are identical. They can't be because we're separate individuals. I think you, because you assumed I am not Black, got defensive about the topic. I understand that; I don't appreciate non-Black people telling how I should feel as a Black woman, but when dealing with people I don't know, I try not to make assumptions about the origins of their perspectives.
The following is not only based on an erroneous assumption, but it also makes use of a generalisation that just isn't factual.
"I assume that you are not black? Therefore, you cannot understand that there is an underlying connection among ALL black people and that among that connection is a need to identify to a higher power, in ALL black culture, just as I said before."
My comment about atheists was relevant because you said you couldn't imagine Uhura, a Black woman, being an atheist. I *can* imagine her as such because there are Black female atheists in my own family. And they aren't arrogant demons anymore than the male cousin who changed his views about God's existence was.
Obviously, there are several matters in which we do not agree. But I'm okay with that, so long as who I am and where I'm coming from -- a Black woman living in a place where it isn't always easy to be a Black woman whilst trying to make sense of the world around me -- isn't misconstrued or misunderstood.
I also wish you well in the future,
Tea
a moment ago
Grr!! I mean, seriously! What about my responses read as non-Black person casting aspersions on a Black person's view of themselves? And where was I judgemental? Tell me, because if I owe this woman a partial apology, I'd like to issue one. But was just so angry when I wrote my last response, I just couldn't be polite. Probably should have waited until I'd cooled off before clicking "Send."
Grrr!!!!
Oooh. Good getting that off my chest.