Comments | stickykeys633: Too good to not be posted...

stickykeys633

Too good to not be posted...

Dec 06, 2006 16:33

This was in response to a comment in my last post. The situation (which wasn't really a situation, but a misunderstanding of a multispecific nature) has since been resolved, but this is just good stuff.

From thegirliscrazy with inserts by me ( Read more... )

race, blackfolk, whitefolk, public

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kalbear December 7 2006, 14:37:22 UTC

It's about having some fucking respect and thinking of as people, not 'black people.' Which is a difference crackers will probably never learn or even ponder and I'm tired of even being irritated, let alone thinking you might actually, oh, I don't know, figure it out one day and treat us like normal human beings instead of museum exhibits or your one black friend or eggshells or all of the above.

Yeah, this argument still pisses me off. You might be generalizing cracker to mean 'all white people who are racist fucktards', but it still reads as 'all white people'. I'm not sure that any progress will be made, one way or another, while one asks for people to not see others as a race in one sentence while lumping everyone of one skin color together in the next.

stickykeys633 December 7 2006, 15:01:30 UTC

Yes, that's been addressed and I included that sentence specifically because it represents a paradox that really isn't there. I encourage you to read some of the comments, a lot has been addressed, specifically regarding that phrasing.

kalbear December 7 2006, 15:10:20 UTC

I read the comments. I didn't see anything other than 'we're allowed to use racist slurs and you're not' which isn't what I'm talking about at all. You also mention that it might piss off some white people when you make these generalizations, but just think about how bad it is for the other folks. Well, okay, but that doesn't make it okay, does it?

Heck, in the comments I just got more mad. White people aren't as smart, they're clueless, they'll never understand, they're slow. How is this not racism? How is this not exactly what you're fighting against?

I'm talking about grouping anyone by the color of their skin and making sweeping generalizations. How can you not see that making generalizations about one race is going to influence a person to make generalizations in kind?

So yeah, I get what you're saying, and I've never really had a desire to say the n-word and am not asking why. I don't get why it's okay to non-jokingly say racial prejudices about anyone. More importantly, I don't understand how this at all helps racism.

ELJAY DOESN'T CARE ABOUT BLACK PEOPLE! stickykeys633 December 7 2006, 16:03:28 UTC

I don't know what it is about replies to this entry! This is my 2nd attempt and dangit it better stick!

1. Read this: http://stickykeys633.livejournal.com/281603.html?thread=2321155#t2321155

2. Then read the edit on this (I don't know if you saw the edit): http://stickykeys633.livejournal.com/281603.html

3. A lot of comments are spoken in feelings. It's not necessarily the words that need to be read, but the sentiment underneath that needs to be understood.

It's hard to think about, but this is where we are. A lot of black people being pissed off and a lot of white people saying, "It's not fair that you're treating me this way just because of the color of my... oh."

It's a very cylon/humans era.
4. The main issue is that more and more white people are starting to see this as a non issue while more and more blacks are getting nonplussed about it. If the only reasoning for ( ... )

Re: ELJAY DOESN'T CARE ABOUT BLACK PEOPLE! kalbear December 7 2006, 18:11:48 UTC

I read both of those points. Neither talk to what I said, and actively give it more ammo. Yes, using the n-word is not the same as cracker/honky/whatever. It's not the same. I never said it was. I've never wanted white people to use the n-word, and don't care, and haven't even brought that up.

What I said was that I don't see how making prejudicial remarks helps combat racism and prejudice. Period. You can say that black people have reason to do so, and I'll agree - but it doesn't matter, because it's still ultimately coming from a hateful viewpoint and only encourages divisiveness.

You have to be strong enough to say that when black people go off on me because I'm a white man it's because of circumstances in their lives that they couldn't control, and hopefully I'll have a chance to make that better.If you're talking about accepting responsibility for your own actions, start with yourself. I can't control what you say or think, I can only control what I say and think and try and influence others, but I'm not going to stand by and ( ... )

Re: ELJAY DOESN'T CARE ABOUT BLACK PEOPLE! stickykeys633 December 7 2006, 18:44:16 UTC

I want to stress that I'm not arguing with you, I'm trying to validate what you're saying and make you see it from a slightly different perspective ( ... )

Re: ELJAY DOESN'T CARE ABOUT BLACK PEOPLE! kalbear December 7 2006, 18:52:34 UTC

I agree, but it still doesn't help matters to make any kind of prejudicial remarks, and that was my point (and what it sounded like you were justifying). I'm not saying that there should be some kind of contract, one way or another; I'm saying that regardless of what the people in power do, you have a choice to change your behavior. People aren't going to stop being racist because they make a deal with anyone else. They're going to stop being racist when they start looking at people as people and not grouping them into arbitrary value judgments based on the color of their skin ( ... )

Re: ELJAY DOESN'T CARE ABOUT BLACK PEOPLE! stickykeys633 December 7 2006, 19:06:18 UTC

I think we're saying the same thing just with different levels of intensity. You're saying that racism hurts from any angle, and that I agree on. I'm additionally saying that it doesn't matter, and some things you have to let slide because the situations for it haven't gotten to a point where it will be fixed.

And that sucks, and it doesn't help, but it's the reality of the thing. Give blacks a pass on cracka and whitey because that's the only ground we have. And when we get to a point that your side is cleaned up, then come yell at us about it, but until then, let us have it and fight some bigger battles, because this argument will still be there, trust.

croupier December 7 2006, 22:45:41 UTC

I'm not sure that any progress will be made, one way or another, while one asks for people to not see others as a race in one sentence while lumping everyone of one skin color together in the next.I'm not sure that any progress will be made until all us white people acknowledge that the power dynamic is shifted in our favor. Black people calling us "crackers" will be as hurtful as white people calling Black people "n-----s" when ( ... )

kalbear December 7 2006, 23:09:47 UTC

Did the word "cracker" really hurt you that fucking much? You say you understand that "cracker" and the n-word are not the same, but you are reacting as if the word "cracker" had the sting of half a millennium of colonialism behind it.

I'd recommend that you not read into my intent or my reaction any more than what I said. I don't think I ever equated the two, nor did I even imply that they are as bad. Nor did I say that it hurt me personally.

I just don't understand how racism can be fought by using racist remarks, and I've still not seen a proper reply. You say that it's not my place to even ask the question...so can white people contribute nothing to a talk about racism?

I agree with SK that this isn't a particularly huge problem, and it's the sort of thing that can be solved later, but I don't think that means I shouldn't talk about it at all.

If we do, we are just suppressing people of color. Telling Black people what language they get to use when they initiate discussions about racism is a thousand fucking times worse ( ... )

stickykeys633 December 7 2006, 23:41:14 UTC

1. She's not saying you can't talk about it, she's saying you can't dictate how it is discussed. White people don't have the right to tell black people what they can and can't say about racism, about the use of slurs. To tell a black person they should censor themselves is to exercise the same white privilege that's causing the problem ( ... )

kalbear December 7 2006, 23:51:19 UTC

Actually the more important part isn't the racial slurs - it's the racist tendencies. You've kept missing my point. I don't care about cracker, honky, or whatever. The slur isn't that big a deal. The bigger deal is saying 'all white people do X'. That's what I took exception to before, it's what bothers me now. I don't care about censorship; I care about the attitude that it's somehow okay to lump anyone together because you've been lumped together. I don't see how that solves anything, and I don't see how defending it solves anything either ( ... )

stickykeys633 December 8 2006, 00:08:52 UTC

kalbear December 8 2006, 00:24:26 UTC

No, that's a little too simplistic and you've read enough of me saying "I talk in generalizations" to know that isn't the case. Seriously, it seems like you just backpedaled because nowhere has ALL been stated that it also hasn't been clarified. I'm always very clear about what I mean when I say whitefolk, always.

You weren't the only one who said it; I actually think I was remarking on a comment that TGIC said. But it doesn't matter.

And really, how are you effected if we have that attitude? Are you not going to fight racism just because someone isn't falling in line with the way YOU think it should be fought? Do you see the disparity and how that attitude still stinks of white privilege.If it were the case that I would be opposed to anyone and not be doing anything else, I'd agree. But I can be against racism both in this case and in worse cases, and it doesn't cause me some deficit. This isn't and has never been an either-or type of deal, and just because this bugs me doesn't mean I can't support people who do this for a ( ... )

stickykeys633 December 8 2006, 00:45:04 UTC

It's not that it has to exist, it's that it does. In the reality of the situation there are constants and you do have to accept that anger and hatred are going to be constants in this struggle. There's not getting around it, it was started by laziness, and fueled by pride, greed, and lust, and carried on by hatred ( ... )

kalbear December 8 2006, 01:00:43 UTC

First off, I should've said this before - thanks. Thanks for talking to me about this for so long. I don't know if I'll totally agree with you, but it's good that we can actually talk about this without killing each other.

I think that's what's bothering you the most. The double standard. You wonder why it should exist since it's not helping.Nope. I don't care that minorities can make racial slurs or whatever but white people can't. I don't want a world where it's okay for those in power to make prejudicial remarks and decisions because those who aren't do so too. That's crap. What I don't get is supporting that view. I don't see why it needs to be there. I recognize that it does exist, I recognize that there are a damn lot of people that have it, and it's not going to go away overnight because I ask nicely or otherwise. Nor do I want to use it as some kind of bargaining chip - the 'well, as long as you're prejudiced, we can be too - so you better change!' The first and biggest change that needs to happen before anything else does ( ... )

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