Please may I claim....

[luthienberen]

Characters:

1.) Jacen Solo
2.) Jori Lekauf

Books:

3.) Traitor by Matthew Stover

Quote:

4.) "...he is the greatest of all the Jedi. Jacen Solo is the living Jedi dream. Even without the Force, he is more dangerous than you can possibly imagine." from Traitor spoken by Vergere to Nom Anor.

Comments

[sith_romantic]

Amazing quote. :O

[nissyaskywalker]

Matthew Stover is a wonderful writer and that quote is Amazing :D Good Choice.

[luthienberen]

Thank you! I'm delighted I'm not the only one who thinks so! :)

[luthienberen]

It is isn't it? When I first read that a shiver went down my spine, but then Matthew Stover is n fantastic writer. Have you read the ROTS movie novelisation he has done?

[sith_romantic]

Sure, I have. And I thought it was great when I first read it. BUT then, analysing it, I changed my view. Matthew Stover can write a very exciting story, but I strongly disagree with all his points about poor Star Wars characters. And the first thing that I can't accept from anyone - he loves Obi-Wan Kenobi and with every word he's trying to represent him as Saint. You know my hatred towards him. Then he's showing Padmé as bitch, honestly. Openly hinting at her close relationships with same Kenobi (author is envy that she didn't choose his beloved hero???). Anakin. Heartless monster at the end of the book. Nothing like him in the movie. He's very good at describing psychological stuff, but his own attitude transform novelization to something that have nothing in common with original source. He shows the story as mad Kenobi fan would like to see it. I can't like it.

[luthienberen]

Obi-wan is not my favourite by far and I certainly don't like how easily he let go his love for Anakin at the end, but I think this displays in a way the coldness of the Jedi.

I do believe that Matthew Stover shows with great symptahy Anakin's fall, showing how tired and fearful Anakin was, how for many years Palptine had been whispering and manipulating him, twisting him slowly. And how Anakin's deep abiding love for Padme was a major factor in his downfall - in Anakin's understandble fear of losing her (he has lost the people he has loved in his life in terrible ways: his mother and Qui-Gon).

Matthew Stover also showed how the Jedi helped pitch Anakin against them by causing him to spy on Palptine, a shady action.

As for hinting at Padme's close relationship with Obi-Wan that is in the film and has nothing with the author wishing her to be with Obi-wan. In the movie Anakin feels jealous of the visit Obi-wan made to Padme, a fear that is fed by Palptine, and in the book is given more time. Padme is close to Obi-wan, we have AOTC

[luthienberen]

I guess I read the last part about Anakin/Vader differently, I read it as a man whose heart is so broken his grief is expressed as rage, and then the lonieless and despair. Only Palptine is left. But this is my reading only.

But, of course, this is why fandom is so fasinating, different people can read the same passages and come to a different conclusion!

*hug*

[sith_romantic]

Oh I said incorrectly. I fully agree with you about him after reanimation and kill me if I'd ever meant what I posted before. I fully empathize him and sincerely admire this man like no one else. That he found the strength to continue to live and fight and be a good man. I'm more than sure that none of us has a right to blame him in his actions, because it's hard to even imagine how does it feels to go through everything he went through. And it is good for all his haters, because each of them would be dead or insane in his place

(Edited due to copy & paste of same quote twice)

[luthienberen]

The major problem with your accusation that 'Stover did that to him', is that he was working from the scripts for the movie (obviously things are different in the film as scripts are fluid and no writer can keep 100% to the finished article).

Even more, is that Geroge Lucas worked closely with Matthew Stover on the novel, so in the end it had his seal of approval.

Another issue is that in a film, we are not privy to a character's thoughts - that is where books can have an advantage.

Why does Stover need to tell us that Kenobi already saw Palpatine's shuttle and that's why he escaped leaving Anakin to die? There was no Palpatine. We saw him landing long after Obi-Wan departing. There is no point to justify him, lying. Maybe it was more like revenge for younglings?This is due to a change between script at time of Stover's writing and the final what was shot in the film. Where there are differences in the book and film I can't blame Stover becuase of the fluid nature of scripts and Stover having to write with what at the time were the

Re: (Edited due to copy & paste of same quote twice)

[sith_romantic]

Alright, I've understood. Let's close this discussion, I have no wish to argue. I was thinking quite like you when I first read the book. And I didn't meant you as obidala fan, I'm just telling, that disagreement in people's opinions on the same things is what I hate the most in this fandom and I don't see anything good in it as you do.

Re: (Edited due to copy & paste of same quote twice)

[luthienberen]

*Hugs* I didn't want to hurt you dear, and I do not like it when fans being polar opposites leads to anger amidst fans (which is why I usually avoid heated topics).

Some debate is good, but I do agree that we have run the course of this discussion and will just leave it. Especially since we both are Anakin and Anakin/Padme lovers!

[luthienberen]

Both Stover and Lucas were linking ROTS with the original trilogy since for most 'causal' fans (in the sense that they don't jump into online/offline fandom) would probably only see the films and possibly read the movie novelisations.

Vader is a bit cold in the book, he is a Sith. We see this coldness, lack of empathy with other viewpoints when he says to Obi-wan (film) you are either with me or against me (paraphrased). Stover had to try and connect the cold Vader with ROTS Vader. He is sowing the seeds for the future.

I am not bashing Anakin, he is my favourite Prequel character, yet I don't think he is blamesless, for in the end he murdered children and as much as I feel great sympathy for Anakin and believe he was driven to the brink and beyond, he is responsible for his actions. He chose to slaugther younglings and for that he must answer - and he did, through the terrible loss of his wife and years alone

[sith_romantic]

From what I remember you justify Jacen's actions? He made hard, but right choices and I don't think you would be agreed when someone will tell he deserved to die. Same I don't agree that Anakin should have suffer as much as he did. If they with Padmé would have a chance to finish their talk, with no Obi-Wan interrupting it, I'm sure they'd understand each other and do you really think he wouldn't repent without this 23 years of being in hell and making many more doubtful actions? I don't think so. And I don't think it's right to compare his coldness before and after Mustafar, there was really no reasons for such description as Stover did and no one will prove me wrong. By the way, have you read "Dark Lord: The rise of Darth Vader?"

[luthienberen]

I cannot justify all of Jacen's actions as much as I wish to (okay, with almost all of them, but as with Anakin there is one or two mistkaes I believe he made), and no, I can never agree that Jacen deserved to die - nor did I say Anakin deserved to die. Anakin sufferd more than I wished him too, and I would have liked seeing him being saved earlier.

However, I think as Vader, even while he did evil he also had that spark of goodness. This is shown in how his men geniunely loved and amired him, how he still cared for them.

This is the tragic thing about the interruption by Obi-wan, the what if? Would Vader's/Anakin's actions be different? Maybe, Vader would still be a Sith but not so brutal. It is hard to know.

Anakin suffered and paid for his choices and of course I would have wished them to be less his years of suffering, but unfortunately this was not so. The only person who believed he had good in him had died, and his son had yet to be old enough to believe in this too.

[sith_romantic]

I agree and this goodness in him is why I love Vader so much *sigh*
I was reading a fanfic with this "what if" - not until the end though, because Obi-Wan appeared there anyway and I didn't want to kill the great impression of this alternative story. Padmé turned him back to Light. On Mustafar. And they escaped together. That's all.
And I don't support that it was the only choice for Padmé to die. I know all the arguments why it happened, but I can't accept it. This was the last thing that broke him completely.

[luthienberen]

This was the last thing that broke him completely.

This. I agree with this 100%. It left him shattered. :(