quick question. I haven't gotten a chance to finish reading all of this but I know I'll forget the question if I don't comment now lol. When you did totals of male vs female deaths, did you tally the ratio of one to the other. What I mean is, for example, if there are overall more male characters on the show then yes there will be more males in the death totals and vice versa for females. So you need to find out which gender has the most characters over all then use that to make a ratio of gender deaths per that gender - i.e. [(male deaths - number of male characters) divided by number of male characters] multiplied by 100.
Sorry, just a geeky science major adding their two cents XD
This is the same way I respond to the "But white people die in BUFFY too!" or "But more whites than blacks die in BTVS!" when I complain about race problems in BTVS - because if whites died in exactly the same proportion as their representation on the show as do black characters, there would be maybe 3 people left in the entire town, let alone the series.
Supernatural's race issues...Oh, that's a whole nother rant (and I've done it several times on my own blog already).
hey there! ok, the short answer is: no, we didn't. that's a really good point, but considering how many minor characters were already taken into account, that would mean literally counting every person on screen for all six season and I just... I think my head would e'splode :P ash's too, probably. however, while it's not empirically shown, there are some heavy implications about the ratio in the post itself, because we do address death rates vs survival rates, and talk about a lot of the key characters' genders. I think (hope) you'll find this comes kind of close to scratching that scientifically-correct itch :P With the right guidelines, we could probably come up with some pretty strong representative ratios though.
Are there any instances of Show passing the Bechdel test that don't involve Ellen and Jo talking to each other?
I was wondering what your qualifications for notable deaths were? If they're people who have had a profound impact on the boys, would Pastor Jim be included? But if you base it on the amount of episodes they appeared in, why are the psychic kids, Andy and Ava in particular, not notable deaths?
Are Lucifer and Michael considered deaths, or just hanging out in hell for a while? If they are hanging out, why is Adam not also considered hanging out in hell? If they are dead, why are they not notable deaths?
In short we had a combination of characters who had an impact on the boys and those who appeared in more than one episode.
Pastor Jim and Caleb caused us some problems. Initially we had them in and then thought that fandom has made more out of the characters than the show did. Caleb hardly appeared at all. We know he was a family friend (like Jim) but had no screen time. We counted the death, but didn't consider him notable.
But we realise that others might. We had to make a judgement call on that one.
Again.. tricky ones. We had big discussions over these characters.
Michael is tricky because he never really had a "vessel". So he's never really seen to die. Though essentially yes to him and Lucifer (as angel and demon) "hanging out" in hell.
Adam. At first we tossed up whether to count Adam as dying in Jump the Shark, because he was 1) already dead and 2) the MoTW. We decide no. We decided that his body was resurrected in Point of No return and therefore his body died in Swan Song. Though he could also be consider "hanging out" in hell (his soul) but made a judgment call on saying he died in Swan Song. He may return and so that "death" becomes redundant.
Not exact science I know. We did say this was hard and these deaths were the hardest one.
Hope that makes some sense. Believe me, we tossed a lot of this back and forth and decided we had to make a judgment calls on some deaths and agreed that if someone else was doing it they may have called it differently.
Yup, ditto ash on all accounts. I'd also add that Michael and Lucifer are archangels, and heaven or hell can hold them for millenia but when they get out they're still a-okay. They're not actually dead until they do the white-light-of-doom thing. Humans, on the other hand, have always been considered dead by the show when they're not on earth. When Dean was in Hell, when both boys were shot and ended up in Heaven, even when they thought Sam was in the pit, they were referred to as dead. So it follows that logic too.
As for the special kids, yeah, that was a tough call. But I'd point out that if we added Andy and Ava the genders would still be equal. Like ash48 said, it's tricky, but I feel like how little mourning there was over their deaths also played a part in the choices (maybe just subconsciously?)
Interesting .Honestly I don't care about the gender on the person who is evil or what gender,color and religion it is on the person who dies in a TV show . Evil is evil and death is a death. I never understood why a death of a women is so more important then over a man .Do i get upset and sad then women and children getting killed,raped ,beaten or treated unfairly just because they are seen as the “weak” in real life, of course it make me see red . But it also make me sad then men is the victim too.
yes sometimes innocent women dies but so does the men and the children too in TV shows ,so this just confirmed what I suspected: it's more men who dies then women .
Yes. This was mostly for interest sake. We are not making any judgment on the show. The show deals with a lot of death - in fact bases most episodes around someone dying.
Agreed though.. all death is sad. No matter the gender.
Yes - but horror stories and shows have a particularly nasty fetish about using women and people of color as monster-chum. It's a false equivalency to say "Oh, all death is sad on a horror show" when said show has a history of negating anyone who isn't a white male - and has no one other than white males in the inner circle of heroes. And which has a history of introducing one, and only one, person of color per season - only to kill that person off.
So how's that "back-from-the-dead" magic (that's repeatedly revived both Winchesters, Grampa Campbell, Bobby and Castiel - pale males all) working for Jo, Ellen, Pamela, Mary, Bela, Anna, Uriel, Gordon, Lt. Hendrickson, Rufus, or any of the other non-white/non-male semi-regulars in the story?
I guess it is pointless to write this because we see things from a certain point of view
and yes I do think all death is sad that is what I am .
Do you and you minions like you think there is no racist among non white people or that women can not do nasty thing like murder or other violent things That is just ridicules and yes I know that white people and men has a bigger number in this subject and believe me then I say this I would definitely take away that part from every human if I could .
So you can accuse me for being a racist and misogynist all you want
I love you guys for putting this together and posting it. It's obvious that a lot of hard and tedious work went into this, and even if ya'll did it just for fun, hard statistics are a great thing to have on hand! And it's personally annoying to have so many opinions going around on your favorite show that conflict with your own, so it's nice to have some cold hard facts to fall back on when you're not in the mood for opinions. Props to you guys for your hard and creative work. :)
Thank you so much. Hee.. yes. Certainly some of it was tedious. Some of it was interesting. Some just plain hard - especially the calls on certain deaths.
Glad it might be something you can call on. Makes it a little worthwhile. :)
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Sorry, just a geeky science major adding their two cents XD
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Supernatural's race issues...Oh, that's a whole nother rant (and I've done it several times on my own blog already).
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Are there any instances of Show passing the Bechdel test that don't involve Ellen and Jo talking to each other?
I was wondering what your qualifications for notable deaths were? If they're people who have had a profound impact on the boys, would Pastor Jim be included? But if you base it on the amount of episodes they appeared in, why are the psychic kids, Andy and Ava in particular, not notable deaths?
Are Lucifer and Michael considered deaths, or just hanging out in hell for a while? If they are hanging out, why is Adam not also considered hanging out in hell? If they are dead, why are they not notable deaths?
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Pastor Jim and Caleb caused us some problems. Initially we had them in and then thought that fandom has made more out of the characters than the show did. Caleb hardly appeared at all. We know he was a family friend (like Jim) but had no screen time. We counted the death, but didn't consider him notable.
But we realise that others might. We had to make a judgement call on that one.
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Again.. tricky ones. We had big discussions over these characters.
Michael is tricky because he never really had a "vessel". So he's never really seen to die. Though essentially yes to him and Lucifer (as angel and demon) "hanging out" in hell.
Adam. At first we tossed up whether to count Adam as dying in Jump the Shark, because he was 1) already dead and 2) the MoTW. We decide no. We decided that his body was resurrected in Point of No return and therefore his body died in Swan Song. Though he could also be consider "hanging out" in hell (his soul) but made a judgment call on saying he died in Swan Song. He may return and so that "death" becomes redundant.
Not exact science I know. We did say this was hard and these deaths were the hardest one.
Hope that makes some sense. Believe me, we tossed a lot of this back and forth and decided we had to make a judgment calls on some deaths and agreed that if someone else was doing it they may have called it differently.
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As for the special kids, yeah, that was a tough call. But I'd point out that if we added Andy and Ava the genders would still be equal. Like ash48 said, it's tricky, but I feel like how little mourning there was over their deaths also played a part in the choices (maybe just subconsciously?)
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yes sometimes innocent women dies but so does the men and the children too in TV shows ,so this just confirmed what I suspected: it's more men who dies then women .
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Agreed though.. all death is sad. No matter the gender.
Thanks for dropping by. :)
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So how's that "back-from-the-dead" magic (that's repeatedly revived both Winchesters, Grampa Campbell, Bobby and Castiel - pale males all) working for Jo, Ellen, Pamela, Mary, Bela, Anna, Uriel, Gordon, Lt. Hendrickson, Rufus, or any of the other non-white/non-male semi-regulars in the story?
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and yes I do think all death is sad that is what I am .
Do you and you minions like you think there is no racist among non white people or that women can not do nasty thing like murder or other violent things That is just ridicules and yes I know that white people and men has a bigger number in this subject and believe me then I say this I would definitely take away that part from every human if I could .
So you can accuse me for being a racist and misogynist all you want
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Thank you so much. Hee.. yes. Certainly some of it was tedious. Some of it was interesting. Some just plain hard - especially the calls on certain deaths.
Glad it might be something you can call on. Makes it a little worthwhile. :)
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The graphics are super pretty!
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And yay! el1ie is awesome. Gave us some pretty pics... and was patient with all our demands.. *hugs*
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