Are there any instances of Show passing the Bechdel test that don't involve Ellen and Jo talking to each other?
I was wondering what your qualifications for notable deaths were? If they're people who have had a profound impact on the boys, would Pastor Jim be included? But if you base it on the amount of episodes they appeared in, why are the psychic kids, Andy and Ava in particular, not notable deaths?
Are Lucifer and Michael considered deaths, or just hanging out in hell for a while? If they are hanging out, why is Adam not also considered hanging out in hell? If they are dead, why are they not notable deaths?
In short we had a combination of characters who had an impact on the boys and those who appeared in more than one episode.
Pastor Jim and Caleb caused us some problems. Initially we had them in and then thought that fandom has made more out of the characters than the show did. Caleb hardly appeared at all. We know he was a family friend (like Jim) but had no screen time. We counted the death, but didn't consider him notable.
But we realise that others might. We had to make a judgement call on that one.
Again.. tricky ones. We had big discussions over these characters.
Michael is tricky because he never really had a "vessel". So he's never really seen to die. Though essentially yes to him and Lucifer (as angel and demon) "hanging out" in hell.
Adam. At first we tossed up whether to count Adam as dying in Jump the Shark, because he was 1) already dead and 2) the MoTW. We decide no. We decided that his body was resurrected in Point of No return and therefore his body died in Swan Song. Though he could also be consider "hanging out" in hell (his soul) but made a judgment call on saying he died in Swan Song. He may return and so that "death" becomes redundant.
Not exact science I know. We did say this was hard and these deaths were the hardest one.
Hope that makes some sense. Believe me, we tossed a lot of this back and forth and decided we had to make a judgment calls on some deaths and agreed that if someone else was doing it they may have called it differently.
Yup, ditto ash on all accounts. I'd also add that Michael and Lucifer are archangels, and heaven or hell can hold them for millenia but when they get out they're still a-okay. They're not actually dead until they do the white-light-of-doom thing. Humans, on the other hand, have always been considered dead by the show when they're not on earth. When Dean was in Hell, when both boys were shot and ended up in Heaven, even when they thought Sam was in the pit, they were referred to as dead. So it follows that logic too.
As for the special kids, yeah, that was a tough call. But I'd point out that if we added Andy and Ava the genders would still be equal. Like ash48 said, it's tricky, but I feel like how little mourning there was over their deaths also played a part in the choices (maybe just subconsciously?)
I see how the lack of mourning might influence you guys. It seemed like there was little mourning for the kids, even though they were important to the plot and affected Sam, whereas Madison, for example, was a one-off, but had an extremely emotional storyline.
Are there any instances of Show passing the Bechdel test that don't involve Ellen and Jo talking to each other?
I was wondering what your qualifications for notable deaths were? If they're people who have had a profound impact on the boys, would Pastor Jim be included? But if you base it on the amount of episodes they appeared in, why are the psychic kids, Andy and Ava in particular, not notable deaths?
Are Lucifer and Michael considered deaths, or just hanging out in hell for a while? If they are hanging out, why is Adam not also considered hanging out in hell? If they are dead, why are they not notable deaths?
Reply
Pastor Jim and Caleb caused us some problems. Initially we had them in and then thought that fandom has made more out of the characters than the show did. Caleb hardly appeared at all. We know he was a family friend (like Jim) but had no screen time. We counted the death, but didn't consider him notable.
But we realise that others might. We had to make a judgement call on that one.
Reply
Again.. tricky ones. We had big discussions over these characters.
Michael is tricky because he never really had a "vessel". So he's never really seen to die. Though essentially yes to him and Lucifer (as angel and demon) "hanging out" in hell.
Adam. At first we tossed up whether to count Adam as dying in Jump the Shark, because he was 1) already dead and 2) the MoTW. We decide no. We decided that his body was resurrected in Point of No return and therefore his body died in Swan Song. Though he could also be consider "hanging out" in hell (his soul) but made a judgment call on saying he died in Swan Song. He may return and so that "death" becomes redundant.
Not exact science I know. We did say this was hard and these deaths were the hardest one.
Hope that makes some sense. Believe me, we tossed a lot of this back and forth and decided we had to make a judgment calls on some deaths and agreed that if someone else was doing it they may have called it differently.
Reply
As for the special kids, yeah, that was a tough call. But I'd point out that if we added Andy and Ava the genders would still be equal. Like ash48 said, it's tricky, but I feel like how little mourning there was over their deaths also played a part in the choices (maybe just subconsciously?)
Reply
I see how the lack of mourning might influence you guys. It seemed like there was little mourning for the kids, even though they were important to the plot and affected Sam, whereas Madison, for example, was a one-off, but had an extremely emotional storyline.
Reply
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