55 + 1 Thinkies About "The Eleventh Hour"

[spiderine]

I am sure I am not alone in anticipating this particular episode of Doctor Who and thinking, "AT LAST! FINALLY!" Dear heavens, we have waited so long for this, the new incarnation not only of our Doctor, but of the entire Doctor Who dynasty. I have made no bones about the fact that ever since the prolonged sadistic torture that was Children of

Comments

[lefaym]

It's something we lost at the end of the RTD (DIE IN A FIRE!) years. And it's why, no matter how much I joke about it, that we have to remember that Doctor Who IS for kids. Not just the chronological kids for whom Eleven will be their first Doctor, but for us, the ones who are supposed to "outgrow all that", who still -- like Amelia Pond -- make our art and share our stories and no matter how grown-up we look with our business suits or constable's uniforms, still in our hearts wait for the Blue Box to land in our garden.Yes, this so much. Personally, I don't believe that childhood ever really leaves us, we just put new layers on top of it. I also don't think that childhood is a sweet innocent place where all your dreams come true, etc -- children can experience fear and darkness and all that stuff just as deeply as adults can, and I think that too many writers of fiction for both children and adults forget that, so we end up with this false dichotomy where dark and horrible endings (CoE) are somehow constructed as more "adult" and

[spiderine]

Anyone who's ever read real fairy tales (not the Disney-esque versions) knows that a kid's imagination can be full of darkness and monsters. Kids need to learn to negotiate that tricky landscape in order to become functional adults. Doctor Who is part of that. The monsters may come, but the Doctor will always save the day!

[neadods]

(I'm about to stop stalking your journal, don't worry...)

a kid's imagination can be full of darkness and monsters. Kids need to learn to negotiate that tricky landscape in order to become functional adults

Do you read Pratchett, and/or have you seen The Hogfather? That story has a specific moment where the main character (who has just beaten a monster to death with a poker) outright says that children shouldn't be taught not to believe in monsters. They know the monsters are real. They need to be taught to believe in the poker.

RTD didn't believe in the poker. Not really. In Torchwood there was no such concept as being able to win, just get a Pyrrhic victory. In Who, the Doctor alternated between being the poker and smashing everyone around him.

Moffat believes in the poker. Just as there are monsters, there ARE ways to defeat them.

[spiderine]

You are not stalking, so please do not stop! :)

I'm not a big Discworld fan, but I saw the television version of The Hogfather, and I agree 100% with Susan. I've believed in both the monsters and the poker all my life.

[neadods]

In many ways, Discworld and Who have the same themes and tone. When Who isn't written by someone with an agenda or a beef against humanity.

[kalichan]

It's like that G.K. Chesterton quote: "Fairytales are important, not only because they tell us dragons are real, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten."

OMG OMG OMG. I am so happy to be back in the TARDIS.

[neadods]

we end up with this false dichotomy where dark and horrible endings (CoE) are somehow constructed as more "adult" and more "significant" than happy endings

There's also a fashion for depression at the moment - look at Smallville as compared to the original origin of Superman.

Add the idea that dark=adult and dark=modern, and you get people like Joss and RTD acting as though tragedy is the only real form of drama, forgetting that their "modern, edgy" story interpretation was invented in Ancient Greece.

[spiderine]

Yeah, but at least in classical Greek tragedy, there are rules. The tragedy must come from the hero's own shortcomings, not just "Rocks fall, everybody dies." There's an internal logic to classical Greek tragedy that Whedon and RTD (DIE IN A FIRE!) simply don't give a hoot about.

[neadods]

at least in classical Greek tragedy, there are rules

Yeah, like "do not slowly torture small children to death on stage." (No, I'm not still pissed off AT ALL, am I?)

There's an internal logic to classical Greek tragedy that Whedon and RTD (DIE IN A FIRE!) simply don't give a hoot about.Well... there are a few Greek rules that I think were just as well to toss by the wayside - the ones about having only one set and having all the action take place in a day (wow, the Greeks invented 24!) I don't mind "I'm just one person taking up arms against a big, impartial world." I do mind - and resent - stories about people taking up arms against a big impartial world and everyone they love and trust getting in their way because Everyone Is Either Dumb Or Evil Or Both

[spiderine]

having only one set and having all the action take place in a day

Yeah, I get that. There are times when that kind of constraint creates great art; it's like the stage version of haiku, right? But other times you really need the whole epic and all that entails.

RTD's on-record attitude about internal logic

Which would be what exactly? I probably heard it some time in the past, but I may have scrubbed that out of my mind; these days the only thing I can think of when I think of RTD is DIE IN A FIRE! ;D

I've never read 'Tunnel in the Sky'. I'll check it out!

[neadods]

Which would be what exactly?

I don't remember the exact quote, but it boiled down to the thing where when you say something in one episode and you expect it to be true in the next episode is for losers people who are too reliant on classical writing. He likes the thrill of having it be new every time without those constraints.

I personally like writers who can construct plots and stick to them. It's a skill. And it leads to actual tension, not "wait until the next commercial break and it's over."

these days the only thing I can think of when I think of RTD is DIE IN A FIRE!

Really? I hadn't noticed.

Tunnel in the Sky is a novel written for Boy Scouts (really) in the 50s, so it's more than a little dated about women. But the plot is much the same as Flies - kids are stranded and must build their own society. No spoiler to say that it's much different than Flies.

[spiderine]

when you say something in one episode and you expect it to be true in the next episode is for losers people who are too reliant on classical writing.

Oh dear. That's appalling! He wasn't like that when he did Queer as Folk, was he? I've heard great things about that show, though I've only seen a few eps.

Yeah, I know I'm really fond of ripping him every chance I get, but he's so fuckin' smug and arrogant about what he does. Your example above is typical. People like that make me get hot under the collar in a way I really can't control very well. I also know that in a way I'm playing right into his hand, but that doesn't matter. I'm sure that if I ever encountered him in person I'd be hard pressed not to spit on him (literally), but in a perverse way he'd be proud of that as an example of how deeply he's affected me. The "best" thing, I'm sure, would be not to let it "get to me", but that just means he'd feel free to do this kind of crap again with impunity. I simply can not be having with that. *shrug*

[neadods]

He wasn't like that when he did Queer as Folk, was he?

Not that I know of - that did sound like it had more than a little "you have dissed my beautiful Doctor Who! How dare you challenge the Doctor me?" - but from what I hear, QaF also had plenty of race!fail and the idea that the only good love story was a doomed one.

I also know that in a way I'm playing right into his hand, but that doesn't matter... in a perverse way he'd be proud of that as an example of how deeply he's affected meYes, and he'd be right. The problem is, "fucking furiously pissed off" may be an affect, but it's an affect with a backlash. I'm just as angry as you are, and I'd be just as likely to go off in his or Moran's faces only to get the same reaction

[debitha]

I completely agree with everything you said here. Just thought you should know. :o)