Oh look, another m/m discussion *sigh*

[sparkindarkness]

And lo we have had another discussion about m/m that has largely focused on people who are not gay men. And there’s a lot that’s wrong again, to say the least about how much yet again there is a complete brushing over of appropriation and exploitation issues and the dehumanising of gay men to objects that is rampant in the m/m genre.

Yet again

Comments

[snakey]

It's so fucking depressing that you have to keep saying this. >__<

It reminds me of the increasing stuff I'm noticing around pressured performance homosexuality & bisexuality - for men. A male friend of mine who strongly prefers women but likes some men actually stopped publicly identifying as bi...because he was so worn down by women throwing him at other men. In one case, literally - shoving him into one. Because obviously, men who like men are there to perform for women's sexual satisfaction. (I'm actually contemplating unfriending someone over here weird fetishisation of Adam Lambert. >_<)

I seem to be getting as many women now saying, "Ooh, you're bi [subtext: MANPORN TIEMZ]" as saying, "Oh, you're bi [subtext: when're you going to leave your wife?]". It just reminds me so much of the whole, "Ooh, you're a lesbian, can I watch?" shit from straight men.

[sparkindarkness]

90% of the m/m genre makes me itch and rage - I cling to that 10% but despair greatly because over and over it becomes so very clear that not only do they not get it, but they dont' give a damn about not getting it either

I've had women do that to me, I've had them do it to me in front of my husband. I've has them do that to me WITH my husband. I have had them point CAMERAS at me.

[snakey]

Incidentally, the couple of Alex Beecroft's books that I read before all the "m/m community" stuff kicked off were definitely well-written and I liked her characterisation. She's also, in my experience, made some effort to actually engage with criticism.

The ones by "Erastes" and Lee Rowan that I read out of curiosity and to know what I was talking about (I suffered through the entire fucking Twilight saga for the same reason)...not so much. I remember actually laughing out loud at one point. So I was really fucking depressed to see one of Erastes' books in Gay's The Word - especially as she's one of the people who outright dismisses any criticism of what she's doing.

[hugh_mannity]

I've always figured m/m as a way for people who don't want to admit to gay, bisexual or transsexual feelings to get off. A sort of safe guilty pleasure.

The internet makes it so easy to self-publish, and so easy to read discreetly -- no furtive purchasing in the back room of a newsagent, no grabbing the mail that comes in plain wrappers before the spouse sees it -- that we're awash in the stuff.

I find much of it disagreeable and generally avoid it, so I haven't really thought about how it affects the world's perception of gay men.

[sparkindarkness]

from what i can see that's not the target audience. I don't not understand women being turned on by gay men having sex - I mean "lesbians" having sex has been a staple of straight male fantasy since year dot so it's not surprising to me.

Awash with it, and some of it stinks mightily. But again I worry because of real word effects (as Snakey points out in the comment above) and also for kids.

When i was a boy I wanted a book with me in it. And I got stereotyped awful portrayals by Ann "tentpeg" McCaffrey. I don't think I'm unique - and I fear that out there now is a boy like me reading a copy of "Real Gay Men Honest" by Julian McHomo, pen-name of female author writing erotica and trying to connect.

[snakey]

That's one of my BIG objections - the deliberate use of misleading names. :(

[spiderstars]

I really have no words other than to agree with you. I know I'm not a gay man, and thus I can't really understand how truly upsetting this is for you, but I'm rather sickened at how gay men have become such common fare for sexual fantasies. Like snakey said, it's unpleasantly like straight men objectifying lesbians and thus really not cool and kinda gross.

[sparkindarkness]

Thank you

[anonymous]

So, do you believe its possible for a someone who isn't a gay man to write M/M fiction and someone else to read it without it being objectifying, even if that's rare in reality? They only personal experience I have is with JP Barnaby's book “The Forbidden Room” She started off as a Twilight fan-fiction slash writer and I believe her audience was mostly women like me, but I know she was personally friends with a few gay men who enjoyed her work, and that tried to write for both audiences. I would like to believe that every person had a right to find whatever they want arousing as long as they do it with respect (for example thinking the idea of a bi dude is hot but understanding that they are real people who don't live to fulfill you fantasies) but I also know that writers need to be conscious of what will happen their book falls into the wrong hands, because there's no shortage of people lacking respect. Really what I'm asking is, do you think that any straight woman who enjoys reading about M/M sex is doing a bad thing, or only

[snakey]

do you believe its possible for a someone who isn't a gay man to write M/M fiction and someone else to read it without it being objectifying

...I sincerely hope it's possible for bi and queer men to do so. :P

[anonymous]

Oops, I didn't meen to erase bi or queer guys, apologies.

[sparkindarkness]

Yes I believe it is.

If the characters are treated as people rather than sex objects it is. If they are more than stereotypes. If the author recognises considers and thinks on the potential harm the work can do. If the author acknowledges actual gay men an actual community and makes sure to remember they are writing the other. If they are respectful, if they do not fetishise, if they remember the real people behind it - then most certainly yes, it can be done respectfully

But it requires care, consideration and never forgetting that it's writing the other, using a marginalised and vulnerable group and that real people are in the firing line

[baranduyn]

Years ago, twenty years ago as a matter of fact I was an operator in a phone sex room. I have a vivid imagination, a good voice, a range of creditable accents and I needed the job

[sparkindarkness]

heh I imagine acting ability was certainly first in line :)

Aye it's not people, it's not the real people - it's the fetishised portrayal, it's the fake sex toys, the fantasies, the blow up doll.

LOL I can imagine - that dream did not come true for them :)

[snakey]

Blow up dolls, yes, and also Ken dolls. I read this on Erastes' website today, and it honestly made me feel sick to my stomach. The first half reads like a little girl playing with dolls, and the last paragraph...tell me that doesn't read *exactly* like the faux-lesbian bullshit. "The only thing better than a sexy woman in lingerie, all that lace and silk...is two."

Part of the fascination is the way that one can play with the characters. Writing the “courtship” of two males, in ages when it was highly dangerous and often lethal to be gay is interesting enough, but then their interaction is so much fun to play with. It is much easier for two gay men in times past to be seen in public together, for example - so there’s no worrying about chaperones, too many dances and subsequent ruined reputations in that respect. Their body language and oral language is vastly different from how a man and woman would converse in times past, too - all grist to a writer’s mill. It’s also easy to put them into adventurous situations together, on a