Sirius Black Sheep

[sistermagpie]

Happy birthday millefioriI was reading a thread on HP4GU today--naturally a long-running thread that I think started with the question of Dumbledore's placing Harry with the Dursleys and it echoed Sirius' life in a weird way for me, in a Meta-way. It started as a conversation about just what business it was of Dumbledore's to decide who Harry lived with.

Comments

[seductivedark]

You know, I never thoguht about it, but Sirius doesn't seem to have had that infamous Second Chance. James, yes. And, James was the one to save Snape. Peter? Not too sure about him, he saw his opportunity and grabbed it running. It could very well be that Dumbledore didn't trust Sirius that much with the adult things in life. The Prank, at an age when young wizards are supposed to be settling down to be serious about life, was perhaps some indication to Dumbledore about Sirius's state at the time?

And, yes, Sirius is the one who broke away from his WW family, and is the one who suffers alone. Even Draco's got his family to lean on, as we find in HBP.

The Black brothers, pointless deaths, remembered marginally in passing as other deaths are revered. Quite a fall for the noble House of Black, and all of the stock dear Mama put into it.

[sistermagpie]

I am pretty drawn to the whole House of Black in so many ways--and somehow the parallel deaths of the two sons is perfect. It's kind of twice as sad that they were so isolated from each other, but were really alike. They both had reputations that really what they were.

I don't get any particular vibe about Dumbledore feeling anything about Sirius, to be honest. I mean, it seems more like a plot thing, that Sirius just wasn't important in a way that related to Dumbledore. But you can't help but think further about that and wonder, you know?

[sistermagpie]

Heh--the Marauders are so awesome that way.:-) This is why I don't get when people think it's weird to see them as both tragic heroes and total jerks because that's the whole thing with them! They're such an object lesson in what happens when you're sort of not challenged as a teenager in terms of having to really face who you are. Maybe James did...but I don't know about that.

[windrunner1981]

Then he's in hiding, the last year of which in a place that seems almost intentionally designed to make him self-destruct. So he does the one thing he's ever been able to do in the story, which is suffer and die, and then there's Dumbledore right away with one of the lamest eulogies ever.I couldn't agree more. I have to say, though, you're much kinder than I am. In my mind, it's not Dumbledore who didn't care about Sirius, but JKR

[dartmouthtongue]

It wasn't fair.

-Snort-

That's why I like her books, they are so full of injustice. It's kind of really fucken marvelous the way she expresses that childhood feeling of how unfair things are, which belongs to anyone who is entirely dependant on the will of others (the oppressed, the poor, the disenfranchised).

[windrunner1981]

Hmm...sorry, I wasn't very clear. I meant it was unfair to me as a reader, who really wanted to see more of Sirius's character. I don't feel he was utilized the way he could have been - or at least the way I wanted him to be : ). I never got that final, "Ah, yes!" feeling from him. It just always seemed like there should've been more.

But yeah, sure life is unfair, and so's Sirius death, I guess. But, you know, unfair things happen in books all the time, but when they do there's usually something right about them, too. They fit the story-line, theme, or characterization. There's something random and pointless about Sirius' death that's always irked me.

Then again, if JKR wanted to show how random and pointless and depressing life was, she certainly succeeded.

[sistermagpie]

There's plenty of times the books are plenty "fair" too, anyway. Punishments and rewards often happen in canon the way they probably never would in real life. There's injustice, but there's wish-fulfillment too.

[dartmouthtongue]

Gigi doesn't have the same relationship with me that she has with my best friend Kade, and though I and Gigi run around the same circles and she's a nice chick, we're meh about each other. I'm kind of indifferent to her, though I don't dislike her. I don't see why I have to care and love everyone I meet or am acquainted with

[sistermagpie]

Gigi doesn't have the same relationship with me that she has with my best friend Kade, and though I and Gigi run around the same circles and she's a nice chick, we're meh about each other. I'm kind of indifferent to her, though I don't dislike her. I don't see why I have to care and love everyone I meet or am acquainted with.

WTF does that have to do with anything?

Actually, not much with what I'm saying. I'm not arguing that Dumbledore *should* have cared about Sirius at all. I'm just noticing the way the character's arc works out in canon. I do think Dumbledore might have acted very differently if the character had had a different role in his own plans, as he's stepped in to act on behalf of many other characters. I'm fine that he didn't since that's the story--you can't really separate who Sirius is from the story he has in canon. But what Sirius' role is in canon seems, imo, to just be there at every step. I think the character's very much affected by his importance to the grand plan.

I believe that Dumbledore gave the

[neville81]

I agree that that speech is far from being Dumbledore's best moment in the series. For me, it's not what he says (I agree with a lot of this), but when he said it. Sirius just died, and it was really not the time to point out all his flaws, particularly in front of Harry. The first time I read it, I was not much bothered by it, since I was concentrating on what was happening and what Dumbledore said, and even though I might not have agreed with every single detail, I could see Dumbledore's reasoning. But while reading I realized how completely inappropiate the whole situation was. It's like one of your parents or your favourite uncle died, and an hour later someone is listing all their flaws right in your face. However, I don't agree that this reflects anything about Dumbledore. I think it is JKR analyzing this subplot for us, in using Sirius as an example of how the wizards' treatment of the various creatures can come back biting them in the ass. She's speaking through Dumbledore here (as she often does), and I can see her not

[sistermagpie]

Oh, I agree Dumbledore was analyzing the plot--actually, I didn't even react primarily to his criticizing Sirius' flaws so soon after his death. I think that aspect is probably just an inconvenience of the plot--he has to do it here because there's no other scene, though I don't buy some explanations I've read that try to make it seem like Dumbledore must knock some sense into Harry here on this matter. It's just expositional, imo. The reason the speech comes off badly to me is, expositional as it is, to me it makes Dumbledore seem really...what's the word? He makes himself come off far too well in the speech even after saying he's going to talk about his own mistakes. So the whole speech is just really a wrong note for me, despite basically accepting the facts of it. At least some of the facts--I think some of the ways Dumbledore ties things up don't completely hang together. For instance, I think the suggestion that it was Sirius' rudeness to Kreacher that led to Kreacher's betrayal not only doesn't hold up but seems to

[static_pixie]

It's funny the way that absolutely no one believed Sirius, actually. Which I think in some ways is a representation of the fact that you've really got to face who you are and where you come from, not run from it.

But, you know, I think it goes hand-in-hand with Dumbledore not doing anything but watching Riddle because he viewed him as a lost cause from the start. I mean, I was talking with a friend the other day and she pointed out that Sirius is so, so similar to Bellatrix. I mean, even before he went to jail, he thought sending Snape down to face a full-grown werewolf would be a funny prank; I'm sure Bellatrix had fun torturing the Longbottoms. They've both got that maniac appeal to them, that 'wow-what-the-hell-will-s/he-do next' thrall. They both take the joke too far where James (asshat that he was) won't because he understands how something like Snape being ripped to peices by a werewolf might not be funny. Sirius doesn't understand this even after Azkaban. And I think Dumbledore would have seen this and passed over

[sistermagpie]

Did Sirius even proclaim his innocence? Part of what was interesting in the thread I was reading was that people were mentioning that Sirius acted guilty and maybe even confessed--which is possibly true, but doesn't really change the injustice of it because really he wasn't acting guilty, he was just feeling guilty over the death of his friends...something that really should have come out if someone talked to him.

And there's never any, that I remember, idea of exactly how people thought Sirius was the traitor. I mean, when we learn Peter's the traitor everyone can understand how it happened--he always went for the biggest bully, etc. Peter admits this is the case. With Sirius I'm not sure why everyone thought it was Sirius--how did they fit being a traitor into his personality? If it was just his being a Black that would be pretty interesting...

Yeah, that's a good question

[jazzypom]

And there's never any, that I remember, idea of exactly how people thought Sirius was the traitor.

Especially given the fact that McGonagall told of the surprise expressed when Sirius Black was found at the scene laughing his head off. It was just circumstantial evidence. No movement for priori incantatem, no nothing. I mean, in PoA, they talk about how Sirius and James were so close. They were brothers, like you'd say their name in a single breath - JamesandSirius.

If it was just his being a Black that would be pretty interesting

It didn't help that Regulus was a deatheater. And Bellatrix, and her husband and his cousin (L. Malfoy). The wizarding world does subscribe to the saying that blood tells. Notice how the Weasleys don't speak to their cousin who's an accountant (and a squib). Note how squibs are treated, and werewolves and people whose blood are 'impure'.

Re: Yeah, that's a good question

[sistermagpie]

Right--and yet this is Dumbledore who's supposed to be standing for something different who seems to have no trouble with the Sirius situation. Sirius and Dumbeldore are tied in all sorts of disturbing way, but it's never really spoken of.

Come to think of it, Hagrid says that Sirius argued when Hagrid came with orders from Dumbledore that Harry must go to the Dursleys, but he did ultimately agree (presumably because he thought it must be in Harry's best interest). Why would Sirius do that if he were a Death Eater?

[ellecain]

The relationship between Dumbledore and Sirius was a bit peculiar, wasn't it? You said that Sirius seems so little beholden to Dumbledore, but in OOTP, whenever people counsel Sirius against leaving the house, they always resort to "Dumbledore said so"; and that shuts Sirius up.
But why should it? What did Sirius owe Dumbledore? Why was he loyal to him?

Other characters like Snape, Lupin, etc were given a Second Chance. But, as seductivedark says, we never saw this with Sirius. Sure the Prank could be interpreted that way, but as you said, it never seems to register with him at all; it was all about James and Snape. So to me, it is quite unclear why Sirius obeyed the edicts handed down by Dumbledore. I never saw much warmth between them in their scenes together. (In fact, when DD and Sirius are in the same room, Sirius gets very little attention from him.)

[seductivedark]

I think static_pixie had a good point, that the way Sirius saw the Prank had a lot to do with the way Dumbledore treated him from there on out. Unlike James, he was missing that little spark of something that tells him when a joke has gone too far. This can be a dangerous thing after all, and not necessarily a good thing when one is being considered to raise a child, as Sirius was considered by the Potters to be Harry's guardian: an inability to see danger, not just thriving on it or going after it for the thrill.

I think Sirius obeyed Dumbledore because he was really trying to be a part of the Order, and his staying at Headquarters was deemed to be the best thing. He does seem to have a problem in knowing when something is too dangerous. Maybe he was becoming mature enough, after being out of Azkaban for a while, to realize that he needed to follow rules like kids recite multiplication tables by rote, in order to learn safer behavior. Just speculating there.

[sistermagpie]

The more I think about the more I wish I knew what was going through Sirius' head in OotP. He obeys Dumbledore's orders also in giving Harry to the Dursleys--Hagrid says he argued with him when he came to take Harry, but Sirius eventually agreed. Ironically, some seem to hold this sort of against Sirius as guardian, basically saying that he was more interested in finding Peter than fighting for a claim on his godson, but to me it seems like the opposite might be true. If he was level-headed enough to give Harry up because Dumbledore thought it would be safer, he may have been spurred to go after Peter that much more because of that need he had to do something. That's what seems to be at the root of a lot of his recklessness. Sirius seems kind of ultimately doomed by the combination of his faults and his attempts to do the right thing. As many characters are.

[jodel_from_aol]

Interesting that you chould bring up that Sirius seemsed more interested in finding Peter than fighting for a claim for his godson. Because it is absolutely true. Hagrid is pretty immovable when he "has his orders" but Sirius could have *gone with* Hagrid, couldn't he, and *explained* things to Dumbledore? Or at least *tried* to?

So where else have we seen somebody in the series do something like that? Oh, yes. Wasn't there something about a new mother who chose to die rather than raise and protect her kid, because her husband (who she tricked into marriage) had walked out on her, perhaps?