Sirius Black Sheep

[sistermagpie]

Happy birthday millefioriI was reading a thread on HP4GU today--naturally a long-running thread that I think started with the question of Dumbledore's placing Harry with the Dursleys and it echoed Sirius' life in a weird way for me, in a Meta-way. It started as a conversation about just what business it was of Dumbledore's to decide who Harry lived with.

Comments

[windrunner1981]

Then he's in hiding, the last year of which in a place that seems almost intentionally designed to make him self-destruct. So he does the one thing he's ever been able to do in the story, which is suffer and die, and then there's Dumbledore right away with one of the lamest eulogies ever.

I couldn't agree more. I have to say, though, you're much kinder than I am. In my mind, it's not Dumbledore who didn't care about Sirius, but JKR.

I'm still not over his death, not really. I can't believe she wrote it that way. And I mean "not over it" in a bad way, not in that it was so moving that I still get emotional or something like that. It was completely lame for a character that had such amazing potential. And you're right - he never had that redemptive opportunity that he deserved.

Grr. Sorry, I could rant for hours on how I feel that JKR had two perfectly amazing characters in Sirius and Lupin, and really kind of squandered both of them in a way that's nearly unforgivable. And that doesn't give me much hope for Book 7, either, and Snape's resolution. She might mess that up, too.

Yes, I'm very, very bitter. But it's the truth -- I haven't been a true blue Potter fan since Sirius fell through that curtain. It wasn't fair.

[dartmouthtongue]

It wasn't fair.

-Snort-

That's why I like her books, they are so full of injustice. It's kind of really fucken marvelous the way she expresses that childhood feeling of how unfair things are, which belongs to anyone who is entirely dependant on the will of others (the oppressed, the poor, the disenfranchised).

[windrunner1981]

Hmm...sorry, I wasn't very clear. I meant it was unfair to me as a reader, who really wanted to see more of Sirius's character. I don't feel he was utilized the way he could have been - or at least the way I wanted him to be : ). I never got that final, "Ah, yes!" feeling from him. It just always seemed like there should've been more.

But yeah, sure life is unfair, and so's Sirius death, I guess. But, you know, unfair things happen in books all the time, but when they do there's usually something right about them, too. They fit the story-line, theme, or characterization. There's something random and pointless about Sirius' death that's always irked me.

Then again, if JKR wanted to show how random and pointless and depressing life was, she certainly succeeded.

[sistermagpie]

There's plenty of times the books are plenty "fair" too, anyway. Punishments and rewards often happen in canon the way they probably never would in real life. There's injustice, but there's wish-fulfillment too.

Unfairness?

[mary_j_59]

Well, yes, Sirius's death might well seem unfair and pointless, but it was just like him to go haring off to the ministry to resuce Harry, against the advice of all authority. And he was happy to be fighting Bellatrix! It was not a horrible death; Sirius is exactly the sort of person who *would* die in battle. I thought his character arc made a great deal of sense, but then, I don't like Sirius, though I can appreciate his virtues. Both his flaws and his virtues led him to that place and shoved him through the veil - but mostly his virtues. The man always tried to protect his godson, and I did like that in him, even if I didn't like the character. I was far happier seeing the poor bloke die a hero than I would have been to see him (1) tortured, (2) hauled off to Azkaban, or (3) given the dementor's kiss, any of which would have been quite possible. What happened to him was far better than those alternatives. Just my two cents-

[static_pixie]

Yeah, actually, I'm with you on JKR not giving enough attention to characters who do seem like they could have a lot of potential. Lupin for sure, Neville (who's around, but not really), Tonks definitely. Blaise right now. It's so annoying the way that her books have to focus so exclusively on the Trio, because to me, Hermione isn't one of the best characters JKR has, nor is she the most interesting. I'd cut so many of her 'anvil' scenes with Ron for some more of any character listed above.

[arclevel]

I'd have been perfectly happy to cut out more than half of HBP in favor of the things that were actually interesting -- the war, classes (including Snape teaching Harry a subject that Harry's actually good at), development of Neville and their newer friends in other houses. Instead, we got a book full of mostly pointless backstory on Voldemort and shipping, shipping, yet more shipping, and a bit of shipping on the side. And badly written shipping, at that, which managed to turn fomerly likeable characters into morons that you just wanted to slap for their stupidity.

Yeah, I'm finally getting around to rereading HBP. And remembering why I hadn't done so yet, in between the little bits here and there that I completely love (Snape, Percy, Trelawney, the Muggle PM).

[imkalena]

Yeah, I'm finally getting around to rereading HBP.

I feel bad for you, slogging through that again. I could never do it.

including Snape teaching Harry a subject that Harry's actually good at

Well, she couldn't show them coming to any kind of detente, could she? Because that would have been too interesting. Harry's got to be completely black and white.

[myfatbudgie]

Yes, let's kill off the interesting ones, and not have too much character development for the remaining interesting ones. The bad parts about "young adult" novel conventions are no adults can be competent, and everyone has to be painted either black or white to make it obvious who the good guy is. There was so much potential for characters other than the trio: Sirius, Snape, Remus, Luna, Neville, Tonks, and Andromeda Black Tonks (the successful female Sirius) that it's painful to see them flung aside, and for what they're flung aside. I'd rather have read about Harry's relationships with those characters, and their relationships with each other than about the Trio constantly cleaning Grimmauld Place while Molly harped on everyone.

I thought HBP was slapdash. It had a rehash of PoA and GoF Ron and Hermione plot. I realize that alchemically they're supposed to represent sulphur and Mercury (the arguing couple), but DAMN can't their arguments be interesting?

[sistermagpie]

Yes, the unfortunate part of HBP is that so much of it is really having the characters we know kill time until the climax. There's more plot going on in Slytherin, but Harry can only see that in flashes and we're not in anyone's head there. So he's seeing Pensieve scenes and having elaborately drawn out tasks to get that memory from Slughorn and worrying about Quidditch. He's just having a very normal year, really.

[arclevel]

Yeah, but "normal" can be interesting. That would include a lot of the things I really *wanted* to see -- classes, Harry's relationships with Neville, Luna, and Zacharias (among others), etc. Instead, for "normal" we got chest monsters and the most oblivious protagonist *ever*, or for our sidekicks, attack canaries and Won-Won and Lav-Lav engaging in mutual exploratory oral surgery. Also, it would have been nice if Dumbledore had actually been *teaching* Harry something in their "special lessons", rather than showing him the extended TV-movie version of Voldemort's life.

But yes, you're right that it also hurts that the really interesting things are happening with characters we rarely see. There are always plots going on elsewhere, that Harry isn't party to, but we usually get at least a closer look at their side effects. It's hard to say if that's a result of the way JKR wrote this one (and could have been better), or if it was pretty much necessary for the plot, that there was no reasonable way to make the intrigue surrounding Draco and have us actually seeing it.

[sistermagpie]

That's very true--it's not like there aren't a lot of straight school stories that aren't very intriguing. It's just in this case it's very hard to really care. Or at least it was with me. The Pensieve trips might have been more tedious if told to us, but they still didn't go anywhere, really. And the shipping unfortunately brought out the worst in everyone for me so I couldn't even find it funny in an affectionate way.

[arclevel]

And the shipping unfortunately brought out the worst in everyone for me so I couldn't even find it funny in an affectionate way.

Quite so. And I'm sick of being told it's because they're 16. I was an unusually boring 16-year-old, and some of my friends did really stupid things in the tangles of teenage romance, but nothing as pathetic or mean-spirited or just plain stupid as nearly all the characters do in HBP.

[imkalena]

The bad parts about "young adult" novel conventions are no adults can be competent, and everyone has to be painted either black or white

I read a lot of young adult novels; it's a holdover from my decade as a children's librarian. There has been astounding change in them over the past 20 years. I'd heartily recommend The Amulet Of Samarkand as a book featuring complex characters who undertake questionable actions to achieve dubious goals. The whole existence of wizarding society is painted more obviously darker in that series than HP, and even though the main character gets what he wants, one is left wondering if he will ever notice that wizards are hardly the good guys. Which reminds me. *goes to dig out the cds of book 2*

I think the explosion of fantasy publishing for kids/teens (which has HP to thank) has been groundbreaking in this respect.

Which is all a long-winded way of saying that the black/white thing is JKR's underestimation of children, or her own way of seeing things, or possibly a product of her not being the world's best writer.

it's painful to see them flung aside, and for what they're flung aside. I'd rather have read about Harry's relationships with those characters, and their relationships with each other than about the Trio constantly cleaning Grimmauld Place while Molly harped on everyone.

As you note, JKR doesn't do ALL that much with their relationships with each other, either. Neither do actual teenagers, of course . . . but I heard somebody say once that while real life doesn't have to make sense, fiction does.

On the other hand, I can only think that the shortcomings of HP are exactly what made it so incredibly popular with its devotees. We are free to imagine almost any scenario involving our favorite characters, or any kind of characterization, and it's possible within the scope of the books as so much of these people -- as people -- has been left completely blank.

Are you familiar with Mike Smith's chapter by chapter reviews of HBP? If not, it will warm your heart. He's SO right.
http://mike-smith.livejournal.com/tag/halfbloodprince

[myfatbudgie]

Re: JKR as a writer:

Oh, I'm behind the times on children's books, no doubt. I think JKR was a good writer up til OotP. She had brilliant scenes in it, but it was obvious she definitely had lost track of her own mythology and the need for editing. By HBP, she wasn't even trying to pretend, IMO, even though I enjoyed bits and pieces of it. (Did you find "Spinner's End" a bit cartoonish the way I did?)If you look at the alchemical underpinnings for Sirius's character, and then remember she turned this guy into a lovable hero, it makes she you appreciate how good she is. She definitely outdid Goethe's painfully bad attempt to use alchemical imagery and allegory in some of his stories (Not Faust). Read "Lily and the Green Snake" to see what I mean. It's dead awful, and he's supposed to be One of the Great Writers of All Time.

Re: actual teenage relationships vs fictional ones: It's possible for teenage feelings to be interesting: "The Diary of Anne Frank" read like the best fiction, and was all the more stunning because it was true, and she didn't live to see 17. I'll be happy to be as good a writer as she was in my 60s!

Still, the whole point of what I was saying about Hermione and Ron was that their arguments bored me, realistic or not, and I expect fictional arguments to entertain me. Maybe I don't identify with the arguments. I know I had stupid ones as a teen though, and both sides were silly. (If I were Ron, I'd start looking into a "Battered Wizards" program very soon.)

I don't think it's just the shortcomings of HP that make it so incredibly popular. Look at her source material: Greek, Roman, Celtic, Norse, and Egyptian myths and legends, or at least at nod. She owes a huge debt to Christian, Chinese, Arabic, Indian, and Greek Alchemy. The source material has archetypes for everyone and they've shaped our culture for centuries. We can't help but be drawn to them. Some characters incorporate the myths of more than one god and culture, and makes them not only rich and complex, but gives them a multitude of story lines. Sirius Black incorporates the Greek/Roman/Alchemical/Celtic myths of Saturn, Mercury, The Dog Star, the Black Hell Hound of the Crossroads, The Black Sun. I'd have to see if about Egyptian myths.

Read a random chapter of Mike's reviews. Got the one about The Stupid Spider's Funeral (you know what I call that book, though, lol) I LOVED IT! Shall spend my time merrily reading them all. LMAO at Felix Felicis being liquid Hogan's Heroes, and wondering why they didn't get a giant piece of toilet paper to flush The Stupid Spider down the giant toilet! Thanks for the rec!

[imkalena]

Did you find "Spinner's End" a bit cartoonish the way I did?

Yes. It all seemed like such a big put-on. As Mr. Smith said (paraphrasing), "If Snape really was such a badass, he'd have AK'd Bellatrix on the spot, not spent two hours explaining what a badass he was."

Look at her source material: Greek, Roman, Celtic, Norse, and Egyptian myths and legends, or at least at nod. She owes a huge debt

To everyone everywhere. Yeah. You might not be up on kiddy lit, but I never was one for mythology or Great Books, and I was sincerely disappointed when I found out she lifted the best stuff she had from Cultural Mythology 101. :P

I read #1 in 1999, and was not impressed, putting it up against the other stuff I knew of. It was fine, just kind of "meh." I didn't read the others until a year after book 5 came out because by then I was invested in the fanfic. I'd actually avoided her books because I knew she was a so-so writer and didn't want them to spoil my fannish buzz.

(If I were Ron, I'd start looking into a "Battered Wizards" program very soon.)

You got that right!