I am reminded of Farscape's use of the trope. John knew something was off from as early as 203, Taking The Stone, although he likely attributed it to his reaction to the events at the gammak base, as well as the continuing pressures of the past year. The rest of the crew began to realize something was off soon after. The audience learns exactly what happened before the characters do, but the Moyans know something is increasingly wrong all the while John is fighting and succumbing.
It's really fascinating to see the different paths taken: one in which he and his crewmates learn to live with him in that condition, and the other in which he is able escape it.
Is "Crackers Don't Matter" before or after "Taking the Stone"? Because in retrospect, given that this is where John first starts to see Harvey, it's definitely a Something Is Up Beyond PTSD sign.
Generally: yes, the Moyans knowing something is wrong (though not exactly what) is a twist from the usual "the audience knows, but the characters don't".
And of course we got consequences later. Did we ever.
CDM is directly after TTS. The writers have talked about how the hallucinations were meant as a one-off, but when they developed the chip arc it tied in perfectly.
The only cases of these I can comment on are the Whedon ones, but I mostly agree with your take. I agree that Cordelia is actually worse written in season three (especially the last few episodes)--though I find her pretty in character in Waiting in the Wings (when, for example, she is still friends with Wesley). All I know is that it's a breath of fresh air when Cordy starts snarking in early season four again--her "What are you--DEFICIENT? GET ME OUT OF HERE!" in "Ground State" is delightful. And memory loss or no, Cordy is so very Cordy in "Slouching Toward Bethlehem" and "Supersymmetry." (Plus, Joss clearly has tremendous fun resurrecting high school!Cordelia in "Spin the Bottle
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I have never understood claims that Cordelia's lack of concern for Wesley in late S3 is out of character. One of the things that has always been clear about her is that she reacts incredibly badly to betrayal (one might fanonically suggest that her parents spoiled her in material terms but constantly let her down emotionally as a child): unlike Oz with Willow, she never forgives Xander for his infidelity to the point that she considers restarting their relationship, and note also her furious confrontation with Angel in The Thin Dead Line. Given this, I think it's perfectly in character for her to loathe Wesley and ignore his existence completely after he kidnapped Connor and handed him over to Holtz.
DS9 spoilers!wee_warriorAugust 24 2010, 15:13:17 UTC
Gradual takeover means that the regular in question doesn't change immediately. The audience, for a while at least, relates to character X, just as the other regulars do, as the same person they developed attachment towards. They can't immediately reassure themselves "well, this isn't really X", sit back and watch the other characteres react while they themselves know better. Which also means they do blame X for their actions.
I'm curious - do you remember fandom's reaction to the DS9 equivalent, with Bashir and Martok? If I recall correctly, Fake!Bashir would have delivered the second O'Brien child, among other things, which made the whole twist seem rather poorly thought out. (I did like Martok's resulting eyepatch nonetheless.
Re: DS9 spoilers!selenakAugust 24 2010, 15:30:24 UTC
re: fannish reaction - the only thing I do remember is a lot of Garak/Bashir angst stories getting written where Fake!Bashir does unspeakable things to Garak who puts up with them but now is glad to have the real Julian back. Ah, fanfiction clichés, you never change. :) But anyway, I am of ourse glad we got Real!Martok out of that one, because he turned out to be a nifty character, but never understood the point of Fake!Bashir, considering that other than the revelation episode, he never DOES anything. And as you say, delivers Kireyoshi.
Good analysis, though I think it's worth noting that there's a Doylist element to the dissatisfaction with gradual takeovers. And that's the nagging question of whether it was planned all along or if it's something that was done as a retcon to explain X's bad behavior. You touched on this with the Skrull comparison but I think people also have that doubt about Cordelia in Season 4. (Now, I believe that storyline WAS planned, but somebody just watching it without access to behind the scenes knowledge wouldn't know that, and we hear anecdotal evidence of stories being changed as a season goes on with some regularity
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And that's the nagging question of whether it was planned all along or if it's something that was done as a retcon to explain X's bad behavior.
Oh, absolutely, and I think that's really a case by case kind of judgment. Regarding Cordelia, I think it was planned in the hiatus between s3 and s4 but not before that point. Garibaldi, otoh, was planned.
Pietro Maximoff: details? Does he say the whole House of M thing was due to a Skrull?
The Pietro thing is pretty great. I know some of his superfans don't like it, but it seems in character to me, and it's only a surprise MORE people don't do it. He originally makes the announcement in Dan Slott's post-Secret Invasion issues of Mighty Avengers (which is a little rough in places but a good run overall), and now is on the faculty of the new series Avengers Academy, where he's being blackmailed by a student/prospective supervillain, who (aside from his daughter Luna) is the only one to figure the scam out.
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It's really fascinating to see the different paths taken: one in which he and his crewmates learn to live with him in that condition, and the other in which he is able escape it.
edited because I can finish a sentence!
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Generally: yes, the Moyans knowing something is wrong (though not exactly what) is a twist from the usual "the audience knows, but the characters don't".
And of course we got consequences later. Did we ever.
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Consequences, oh boy!
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I'm curious - do you remember fandom's reaction to the DS9 equivalent, with Bashir and Martok? If I recall correctly, Fake!Bashir would have delivered the second O'Brien child, among other things, which made the whole twist seem rather poorly thought out. (I did like Martok's resulting eyepatch nonetheless.
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Oh, absolutely, and I think that's really a case by case kind of judgment. Regarding Cordelia, I think it was planned in the hiatus between s3 and s4 but not before that point. Garibaldi, otoh, was planned.
Pietro Maximoff: details? Does he say the whole House of M thing was due to a Skrull?
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