Heyer vs. Austen

Feb 05, 2012 06:50

A discussion the other day led to this riff about the differences between the two ( Read more... )

social rules, silver fork novels, austen, heyer, bvc

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Comments 39

nineweaving February 5 2012, 15:07:31 UTC
Excellent analysis, both here and there. I love your observation about hapax legomenon--it is just the sort of close reading I admire, one which opens out a set of works in context.

Nine

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sartorias February 5 2012, 15:12:16 UTC
Thankee!

That reminds me--another fun subject to talk about is deep reading.

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whswhs February 5 2012, 16:29:46 UTC
The thing I liked best about His Majesty's Dragon was that there is a scene in the later part of the novel where the hero realizes that he has misjudged the standard of conduct of one of his fellow officers in the aerial corps, and as a result of doing so has placed himself in a morally false position with other officers, and faces the problem of how to make his position right without doing anything dishonorable. That kind of moral dilemma is very like Austen and made me feel that Novik must have read Austen carefully ( ... )

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sartorias February 5 2012, 16:53:31 UTC
I think Novik got that from Patrick O'Brian, who often put his officers in dicey moral situations; there is very little sign of Austen in her work, but traces of Heyer and of course the series was a huge homage to O'Brian. And took off into its own 'thing' from there.

That's interesting about the rpg--as I recall, we see the most discussion of the Old Vor vs the New Vor in SHARDS and BARRYAR.

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azdak February 5 2012, 17:48:22 UTC
there is very little sign of Austen in her work

I've just finished the first two Novik books (I don't think I'll be reading any more, unless someone tells me that #2 was a very low point) and lot of the dialogue, especially in #1, struck me as Austen pastiche. But I haven't read any Heyer in English, so perhaps it's cod Regency via Heyer rather than a direct crib.

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sartorias February 5 2012, 17:57:38 UTC
I recognized a lot of Heyer's favorite phrases, not Austen's dialogue, when I read them.

(Side note: reading Heyer and Austen in German is such a fun way to try to keep up my reading skills. I wish they were easier to find, over here!)

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newsboyhat February 5 2012, 16:43:38 UTC
Loved your post here and there, Sherwood. I'll always defend Austen as a social novelist, and your point about her ironic use of the word "ton" is brilliantly illustrative.

I think that's part of the reason I find Austen so satisfying and heartwarming to read--she's always a class act where morality and integrity are never questioned. The more I read and think about Mansfield Park, where I think this aspect of her writing shines the most brightly, the more I find it applicable to my life.

I like Heyer too, though I'll read her for sheer entertainment as opposed to how to conduct my affairs, which I've been guilty of using Austen for, ha.

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sartorias February 5 2012, 16:54:03 UTC
Yes--Mansfield gets bad press for the wrong reasons, imo.

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deliasherman February 5 2012, 17:40:34 UTC
It's hard for a modern audience to get Fanny, who is the Perfect Heroine--c. 1800, not 2000. I've always felt she has a hard row to hoe, and is genuinely doing the best she can under almost impossible circumstances. But she might be a tad difficult to live with in real life.

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sartorias February 5 2012, 17:53:32 UTC
The amazing thing is that she actually demonstrates more of a sense of humor than Anne Elliott does, for example. Anne never laughs--ever. Fanny laughs, sometimes to herself (as when Thomas nearly betrays himself by crabbing on the Dr, turning around and discovering his presence, then hastily backtracking) and "talking and laughing" all the way to Portsmouth with brother William--who is vigorous enough a guy not to be fond of a total wet blanket, one would think.

The thing we have to remember is that Austen also knew from experience of those around her what it was like to be brought up in another family as a lesser being. The key sentence in Mansfield is Mrs. Norris's horrific "Wherever you go, you will always be least and lowest"--and Fanny agrees. So even her immature crush on her cousin becomes clearer.

But I think modern readers get stuck on Fanny's standing out against the Lover's Vows play idea, imputing to her motives she didn't actually have. She wasn't against the play, she was against the (nowadays inexplicable) moral ( ... )

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ext_1025211 February 6 2012, 01:30:38 UTC
I was just discussing Austen and Heyer with a friend earlier this week, and trying (not so eloquently) to argue a very similar point about the romance element in Austen. I'll just point her over here and save myself some work.

Also, I just downloaded Wren Journeymage for my kindle and am SO EXCITED. I found Wren to the Rescue at just the right elementary school age when it provided an exquisite escape, and your books have been comfort reading staples ever since.

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sartorias February 6 2012, 01:52:03 UTC
Thank you! Hope you enjoy it!

And your friend is welcome to read and comment, argue, discuss, or throw tomatoes.

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kateelliott February 6 2012, 05:18:41 UTC
sartorias February 6 2012, 06:16:00 UTC
Thank you! :-)

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