Heyer vs. Austen

Feb 05, 2012 06:50

A discussion the other day led to this riff about the differences between the two ( Read more... )

social rules, silver fork novels, austen, heyer, bvc

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whswhs February 5 2012, 16:29:46 UTC
The thing I liked best about His Majesty's Dragon was that there is a scene in the later part of the novel where the hero realizes that he has misjudged the standard of conduct of one of his fellow officers in the aerial corps, and as a result of doing so has placed himself in a morally false position with other officers, and faces the problem of how to make his position right without doing anything dishonorable. That kind of moral dilemma is very like Austen and made me feel that Novik must have read Austen carefully.

I was actually hoping to have that kind of thing as a focus in my current rpg series set on Barrayar thirty years later, with the player characters being challenged by questions of how to sustain their Vor standards of honor in a changing world-but I discovered that the player characters actually didn't even think about those standards, and thought of other characters who did as quaintly old fashioned; in other words, they had the outlook that I had expected to use to characterize one group of the campaign's villains. This has been a bit of a challenge to deal with.

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sartorias February 5 2012, 16:53:31 UTC
I think Novik got that from Patrick O'Brian, who often put his officers in dicey moral situations; there is very little sign of Austen in her work, but traces of Heyer and of course the series was a huge homage to O'Brian. And took off into its own 'thing' from there.

That's interesting about the rpg--as I recall, we see the most discussion of the Old Vor vs the New Vor in SHARDS and BARRYAR.

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azdak February 5 2012, 17:48:22 UTC
there is very little sign of Austen in her work

I've just finished the first two Novik books (I don't think I'll be reading any more, unless someone tells me that #2 was a very low point) and lot of the dialogue, especially in #1, struck me as Austen pastiche. But I haven't read any Heyer in English, so perhaps it's cod Regency via Heyer rather than a direct crib.

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sartorias February 5 2012, 17:57:38 UTC
I recognized a lot of Heyer's favorite phrases, not Austen's dialogue, when I read them.

(Side note: reading Heyer and Austen in German is such a fun way to try to keep up my reading skills. I wish they were easier to find, over here!)

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azdak February 5 2012, 18:15:04 UTC
If you're up to reading Austen in German then you might like to try Heimito von Doderer (nothing like Austen at all except that he, too, is a master stylist). Die Strudlhofstiege is one of my all-time favourite books (set in 1920s Vienna and as thick as a doorstop, so not for the faint-hearted, but he writes such beautiful sentences and weaves so many complex storylines together in such a breath-taking fashion that it repays the effort a thousand times over).

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sartorias February 5 2012, 18:18:56 UTC
I will look for him!

I do have plenty of good books in German, but they can be a struggle; the thing is, I know Austen and Heyer in English so well that context will carry me through a sentence, and thus make clear words I'd otherwise have to stop and look up.

(I would need a month or so of immersion to really bring my German up to speed--snatched moments here and there keeps me at about a ten year old's level, alas.)

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azdak February 5 2012, 18:23:48 UTC
Ah well, perhaps you'll have time one day :-)

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sartorias February 5 2012, 18:37:28 UTC
Time and opportunity--I hope to get back there one day, so I can do that. One of my many plans!

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muuranker February 5 2012, 19:08:29 UTC
I am about halfway in to the first one, and loving it as O'Brian with dragons. It never occured to me that it was in the least Jane Austen.

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whswhs February 5 2012, 19:59:23 UTC
Most of it's not, but that one critical series of events in the plot felt very Austenesque to me. I can't see much resemblance to the Aubrey/Mathurin books at all. Yes, there's the naval background, but O'Brian strikes me as having a very modern, realistic perspective on his characters' motives, with very little tendency to romanticize them, and Novik's are both more romanticized and (which does not necessarily follow from that) characterized with less depth, at least as I read them.

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muuranker February 5 2012, 20:38:42 UTC
I don't think I've got to that series of events. Temeraire has just raised the issue of duty. In many ways, I think that Temeraire is the modern perspective, here.

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sartorias February 5 2012, 21:09:38 UTC
*nod*

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kalichan February 7 2012, 21:11:54 UTC
In one of the books, I believe Laurence dances with a Miss Lucas from Hertfordshire...

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swan_tower February 5 2012, 22:44:26 UTC
One of the games I'm playing in right now is Legend of the Five Rings, which is heavily based on feudal Japan. We're having an interesting time trying to lay aside modern American attitudes and work within that cultural frame. Not succeeding as much as we might . . . but then again, I'm not sure I want to succeed more than I am, since it would involve being kind of a dick to the peasants and eta.

It isn't an easy thing to do, but I find it a fun experiment. Pity your PCs aren't really on board with it!

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