I have my own theory to explain this imbalance. You see, if members of TFW discuss another member that member can't actually be in the scene, right? And originally, the way Kripke had planned it, SPN was supposed to be about Sam Winchester and his brother, the supporting character. But then Jensen Ackles happened. And just by being in any given scene he makes that scene so much more than just the lines he has to say. I think it's the eyes. Or, you know, all his expressions. I am not fangirling here (trying not to, anyway), but in my opinion JA can convey just with a look more than JP with all his stomping about, flailing arms and his famous puppy-dog eyes. It's a true fact that Dean's role wasn't meant to be as major as it turned out. (Aside: did you know that Mark Pellegrino auditioned for Cas? Imagine!!)
So, the more talk about Dean, the less actual Dean. The more Dean talking about others the more Dean. And you know what? On show I'd rather have a scene with Dean and Bobby takling about Sam (cause then we get worried,
( ... )
I disagree because it still keeps him in supporting character hell and it's a disrespect to that character to NOT have him spoken of. It actually makes me hate the other characters after a while because Dean gives and gives and gives to them and he gets so little in return and most of what he gets is negative, with them complaining about him or putting him down
( ... )
Well, show is what it is and I can't make it myself to be the way I'd like. So I try to focus on what I like instead of what I don't like. That's just how I deal. If I was that unhappy with it overall I'd just stop watching.
Besides, even if all the other TFW members talk less about Dean it's still a long way from making Dean a supporting character. Is what I think.
Actually, I suppose if you take it literally, Dean really is a supporting character in the way that he provides support for everyone else. ^^
And originally, the way Kripke had planned it, SPN was supposed to be about Sam Winchester and his brother, the supporting character. But then Jensen Ackles happened. I have never seen an article where Kripke said this was the way the series was planned. Where did you get this idea?
And don't forget Jensen originally auditioned for Sam.
I did something there you should never do - I went by hearsay. Actually it's just something I picked up through random comments and took it at face value. Apparently it's not true and I apologize.
One thing I had read ages ago and what maybe stuck with me so I easily believed what I read was that JP had supposedly been excited to play "the reluctant hero", comparing Sam to The Matrix's Neo and Luke Skywalker of Star Wars. (Wikipedia)
Well, those two are the lead roles in their respective universes (with Han Solo being the - not unimportant - sidekick in Star Wars). But, you are right, it was nothing Kripke ever said.
And yes, I realize that JA originally auditioned for Sam. I've often pondered that and I ask myself if I wouldn't be a Sam-girl now if it had gone the other way, putting up arguments why Sam is the more interesting character... :)
I did something there you should never do - I went by hearsay. Actually it's just something I picked up through random comments and took it at face value. Apparently it's not true and I apologize.
Have you ever read one of the earliest Pilot scripts as written by Kripke? It is very clearly conceptionalized with Sam as the lead and Dean as the sidekick (and a particularly unpleasant character with no redeeming qualities).
So I'd say that was Kripke's original idea. Well, his original idea was one character, a reporter travelling around and chasing ghost story/supernatural phenomena. The networks didn't like it so he volunteered some "so, how about brothers?" idea. But the original script isn't about two leads by a longshot. I just reckon that before that show went into even pre-production, a couple of people got their input and told him his main character was an ultra-Sue and the one supporting character wasn't even good enough to be considered anti-hero so you rooted for both of them to be killed on the spot.
One is on the Season 1 DVD as an extra but it is yet another Pilot draft. The one I'm talking about, I don't know have any links anymore, sorry. I read it once and was pretty disgusted with it
( ... )
I see what you mean. It's true, the more Dean is talked about in his absence, the more, well, absences he has.
But for myself, I don't mind that at all, actually. The other three are terrific actors, too, and Jared doesn't get nearly the credit he deserves, in my opinion. The expression on his face when Sam is trying to comfort Dean, or getting protective of him, or getting pissed at him because he won't take care of himself... I just love what he does. I can't get enough of it, frankly.
So, the more Jensen is on the screen, the less opportunity I have for scenes like the Sam vs. Cas scene in 4x16 or the Sam & Bobby scene in 7x09. When it comes to the brothers, I feel like I have two cups that are filled with scenes that build intimate understanding: Dean's is overflowing, and Sam's is not even half empty. I miss Sam. I want more of Sam. And if the brothers' relationship is the main character (as I see it, anyway :)), then that involves more of Sam thinking/talking/being about Dean.
Okay, I think I understand what you mean now. Reading your original post it felt like you felt Dean was treated unjustly by the writers, whereas now I think you say Sam is?! *is a bit confused*
Anyway, I can totally see your argument from the point of view of somebody who likes both boys (actors) equally. In fact, if I was a Sam-girl, I'd probably be majorly disappointed, because I think Dean is more of the emotional focus of the show, post-wall-breaking problems notwithstanding.
See, the thing is, Dean suffers when he suffers and he also suffers (badly) when Sam suffers. Whereas Sam suffers from his own problems, but for whatever reason (writers?) he doesn't seem to suffer as badly when Dean does. Sure, he worries and he isn't exactly okay with it, but he doesn't seem to be as devastated as Dean is (see Dean's alcoholism...)
Apparently Jared himself said in an interview - and, again, this is something I read in comments, so I couldn't point you to it - that Sam is focused on keeping his own sh*t together, but that Dean is
( ... )
Well, I think Dean is shortchanged as the topic of conversation, as the main plot character. I was studying how TFW talks about each other because I had the feeling that Dean barely ever was, and I was right.
But what I mentioned in my original post was that I came to the conclusion that this meant that Dean barely had a plot, and Sam barely had a point of view. The imbalance reflects negatively on both brothers, not just Dean. I do love them both, and I want to know Sam as much as I've grown to know Dean. I guess I'm greedy
( ... )
SAM: You got to promise not to try to bring me back. DEAN: What? No, I didn't sign up for that. SAM: Dean-- DEAN: Your Hell is gonna make my tour look like Graceland. You want me just to sit by and do nothing? SAM: Once the Cage is shut, you can't go poking at it, Dean. It's too risky. DEAN: No, no, no, no, no. As if I'm just gonna let you rot in there. SAM: Yeah, you are. You don't have a choice. DEAN: You can't ask me to do this. SAM: I'm sorry, Dean. You have to. DEAN: So then what am I supposed to do? SAM: You go find Lisa. You pray to god she's dumb enough to take you in, and you -- you have barbecues and go to football games. You go live some normal, apple-pie life, Dean. Promise me.
Oh man, yes, I never actually caught that. Thanks for clarifying.
(Even reading that little scene made me go all teary-eyed there...)
And thanks for letting us exchange thoughts on our (my) favourite pastime - even if we don't agree 100 % on everything I'm still enjoying the hell out of it!
I have my own theory to explain this imbalance. You see, if members of TFW discuss another member that member can't actually be in the scene, right? And originally, the way Kripke had planned it, SPN was supposed to be about Sam Winchester and his brother, the supporting character. But then Jensen Ackles happened. And just by being in any given scene he makes that scene so much more than just the lines he has to say. I think it's the eyes. Or, you know, all his expressions. I am not fangirling here (trying not to, anyway), but in my opinion JA can convey just with a look more than JP with all his stomping about, flailing arms and his famous puppy-dog eyes. It's a true fact that Dean's role wasn't meant to be as major as it turned out. (Aside: did you know that Mark Pellegrino auditioned for Cas? Imagine!!)
So, the more talk about Dean, the less actual Dean. The more Dean talking about others the more Dean. And you know what? On show I'd rather have a scene with Dean and Bobby takling about Sam (cause then we get worried, ( ... )
Reply
Reply
Besides, even if all the other TFW members talk less about Dean it's still a long way from making Dean a supporting character. Is what I think.
Actually, I suppose if you take it literally, Dean really is a supporting character in the way that he provides support for everyone else. ^^
Reply
And don't forget Jensen originally auditioned for Sam.
Reply
I did something there you should never do - I went by hearsay. Actually it's just something I picked up through random comments and took it at face value. Apparently it's not true and I apologize.
One thing I had read ages ago and what maybe stuck with me so I easily believed what I read was that JP had supposedly been excited to play "the reluctant hero", comparing Sam to The Matrix's Neo and Luke Skywalker of Star Wars. (Wikipedia)
Well, those two are the lead roles in their respective universes (with Han Solo being the - not unimportant - sidekick in Star Wars). But, you are right, it was nothing Kripke ever said.
And yes, I realize that JA originally auditioned for Sam. I've often pondered that and I ask myself if I wouldn't be a Sam-girl now if it had gone the other way, putting up arguments why Sam is the more interesting character... :)
Reply
Have you ever read one of the earliest Pilot scripts as written by Kripke? It is very clearly conceptionalized with Sam as the lead and Dean as the sidekick (and a particularly unpleasant character with no redeeming qualities).
So I'd say that was Kripke's original idea. Well, his original idea was one character, a reporter travelling around and chasing ghost story/supernatural phenomena. The networks didn't like it so he volunteered some "so, how about brothers?" idea. But the original script isn't about two leads by a longshot. I just reckon that before that show went into even pre-production, a couple of people got their input and told him his main character was an ultra-Sue and the one supporting character wasn't even good enough to be considered anti-hero so you rooted for both of them to be killed on the spot.
Reply
That'd be really interesting to see how it all actually developed even before it all went into production!
Reply
Reply
But for myself, I don't mind that at all, actually. The other three are terrific actors, too, and Jared doesn't get nearly the credit he deserves, in my opinion. The expression on his face when Sam is trying to comfort Dean, or getting protective of him, or getting pissed at him because he won't take care of himself... I just love what he does. I can't get enough of it, frankly.
So, the more Jensen is on the screen, the less opportunity I have for scenes like the Sam vs. Cas scene in 4x16 or the Sam & Bobby scene in 7x09. When it comes to the brothers, I feel like I have two cups that are filled with scenes that build intimate understanding: Dean's is overflowing, and Sam's is not even half empty. I miss Sam. I want more of Sam. And if the brothers' relationship is the main character (as I see it, anyway :)), then that involves more of Sam thinking/talking/being about Dean.
Reply
Anyway, I can totally see your argument from the point of view of somebody who likes both boys (actors) equally. In fact, if I was a Sam-girl, I'd probably be majorly disappointed, because I think Dean is more of the emotional focus of the show, post-wall-breaking problems notwithstanding.
See, the thing is, Dean suffers when he suffers and he also suffers (badly) when Sam suffers. Whereas Sam suffers from his own problems, but for whatever reason (writers?) he doesn't seem to suffer as badly when Dean does. Sure, he worries and he isn't exactly okay with it, but he doesn't seem to be as devastated as Dean is (see Dean's alcoholism...)
Apparently Jared himself said in an interview - and, again, this is something I read in comments, so I couldn't point you to it - that Sam is focused on keeping his own sh*t together, but that Dean is ( ... )
Reply
But what I mentioned in my original post was that I came to the conclusion that this meant that Dean barely had a plot, and Sam barely had a point of view. The imbalance reflects negatively on both brothers, not just Dean. I do love them both, and I want to know Sam as much as I've grown to know Dean. I guess I'm greedy ( ... )
Reply
( ... )
Reply
SAM: You got to promise not to try to bring me back.
DEAN: What? No, I didn't sign up for that.
SAM: Dean--
DEAN: Your Hell is gonna make my tour look like Graceland. You want me just to sit by and do nothing?
SAM: Once the Cage is shut, you can't go poking at it, Dean. It's too risky.
DEAN: No, no, no, no, no. As if I'm just gonna let you rot in there.
SAM: Yeah, you are. You don't have a choice.
DEAN: You can't ask me to do this.
SAM: I'm sorry, Dean. You have to.
DEAN: So then what am I supposed to do?
SAM: You go find Lisa. You pray to god she's dumb enough to take you in, and you -- you have barbecues and go to football games. You go live some normal, apple-pie life, Dean. Promise me.
Reply
(Even reading that little scene made me go all teary-eyed there...)
And thanks for letting us exchange thoughts on our (my) favourite pastime - even if we don't agree 100 % on everything I'm still enjoying the hell out of it!
Reply
Leave a comment