I have my own theory to explain this imbalance. You see, if members of TFW discuss another member that member can't actually be in the scene, right? And originally, the way Kripke had planned it, SPN was supposed to be about Sam Winchester and his brother, the supporting character. But then Jensen Ackles happened. And just by being in any given scene he makes that scene so much more than just the lines he has to say. I think it's the eyes. Or, you know, all his expressions. I am not fangirling here (trying not to, anyway), but in my opinion JA can convey just with a look more than JP with all his stomping about, flailing arms and his famous puppy-dog eyes. It's a true fact that Dean's role wasn't meant to be as major as it turned out. (Aside: did you know that Mark Pellegrino auditioned for Cas? Imagine!!)
So, the more talk about Dean, the less actual Dean. The more Dean talking about others the more Dean. And you know what? On show I'd rather have a scene with Dean and Bobby takling about Sam (cause then we get worried, angsty Dean) than Sam and Bobby talking about Dean (cause then we get no Dean). Even in that scene in 7.09 they had sleeping Dean in the background. It's just better with him there, even sleeping.
And this: So, if everyone’s primary relationship is with Dean, then if you take Dean out, what are you left with? A collection of related parts that have no center, no core. This is so so true. Let TFW talk about all the others. Make Sam the center of the attention. In a way I don't care, cause the real center, the real core, the heart of the whole show, is Dean. Has been from Whoa, easy, tiger.
So, really, the reason for the imbalance you point out? Dean gets talked about less by his team members becauce he needs to do the talking so he is actually on screen! He is and always will be the more interesting character. With all his flaws. Because he has real life problems in a supernatural world. Because he cares and worries about others. Because he shows and articulates that caring and worrying over and over again. Because he may come across as a dick at times but he dies for his brother. (Twice, but who's counting?) Because he gets betrayed by his own brother and by his best friend, but his capacity to forgive is endless.
So, bb, don't let the writers get you down! I find the best thing to do if show annoys me (and boy does it annoy me at times - sometimes I just don't want to hear about Sam and his problems anymore) is to go read fanfic. There are truly truly amazing stories out there that have me crying rivers onto my laptop for Dean. Stories that go where a TV show will never be able to...
Thank you so much for sharing this post and for going to all that work. That must have taken you ages!! I so much appreciate this kind of well thought out meta with hard proof for its theory that's not just but I like Dean better or but I like Sam better!
Food for thought on SPN, always a good thing. Hopefully I could give you a little in return :)
I disagree because it still keeps him in supporting character hell and it's a disrespect to that character to NOT have him spoken of. It actually makes me hate the other characters after a while because Dean gives and gives and gives to them and he gets so little in return and most of what he gets is negative, with them complaining about him or putting him down.
"Dean gets talked about less by his team members becauce he needs to do the talking so he is actually on screen!"
I just don't see this. The other characters manage to do plenty of talking about themselves and the other characters, it's only Dean who gets ignored/short-shrifted. The fact is Sam's there as much as anyone, except for a couple of episodes over the last 7 years and the other characters still find plenty to say about him. So I don't see how your scenario works at all. A character can be both on screen talking AND have other characters talking about him. Sam gets it all the damn time. Bobby gets it, Castiel gets it - both to a lesser extent because they are recurring characters as opposed to Lead Regulars.
I'm tired of the excuses for why no one cares about Dean within the show(because that is certainly how it comes across, imo) and for why somehow Dean's the only who doesn't get an actual storyline. If they can do it for every side character that comes along then they sure as heck should be able to do it for the other lead character. It shouldn't even be in question.
There is very little fanfic out that would satisfy me even if I thought it was a viable option to the actual show because it's nearly all some sort of "ship" fic and I have zero interest in any kind of ship fic, whether it's het or slash. Aside from those type of fics, there is very little that show COULD NOT do, they could go there, they just choose not.
Well, show is what it is and I can't make it myself to be the way I'd like. So I try to focus on what I like instead of what I don't like. That's just how I deal. If I was that unhappy with it overall I'd just stop watching.
Besides, even if all the other TFW members talk less about Dean it's still a long way from making Dean a supporting character. Is what I think.
Actually, I suppose if you take it literally, Dean really is a supporting character in the way that he provides support for everyone else. ^^
And originally, the way Kripke had planned it, SPN was supposed to be about Sam Winchester and his brother, the supporting character. But then Jensen Ackles happened. I have never seen an article where Kripke said this was the way the series was planned. Where did you get this idea?
And don't forget Jensen originally auditioned for Sam.
I did something there you should never do - I went by hearsay. Actually it's just something I picked up through random comments and took it at face value. Apparently it's not true and I apologize.
One thing I had read ages ago and what maybe stuck with me so I easily believed what I read was that JP had supposedly been excited to play "the reluctant hero", comparing Sam to The Matrix's Neo and Luke Skywalker of Star Wars. (Wikipedia)
Well, those two are the lead roles in their respective universes (with Han Solo being the - not unimportant - sidekick in Star Wars). But, you are right, it was nothing Kripke ever said.
And yes, I realize that JA originally auditioned for Sam. I've often pondered that and I ask myself if I wouldn't be a Sam-girl now if it had gone the other way, putting up arguments why Sam is the more interesting character... :)
I did something there you should never do - I went by hearsay. Actually it's just something I picked up through random comments and took it at face value. Apparently it's not true and I apologize.
Have you ever read one of the earliest Pilot scripts as written by Kripke? It is very clearly conceptionalized with Sam as the lead and Dean as the sidekick (and a particularly unpleasant character with no redeeming qualities).
So I'd say that was Kripke's original idea. Well, his original idea was one character, a reporter travelling around and chasing ghost story/supernatural phenomena. The networks didn't like it so he volunteered some "so, how about brothers?" idea. But the original script isn't about two leads by a longshot. I just reckon that before that show went into even pre-production, a couple of people got their input and told him his main character was an ultra-Sue and the one supporting character wasn't even good enough to be considered anti-hero so you rooted for both of them to be killed on the spot.
One is on the Season 1 DVD as an extra but it is yet another Pilot draft. The one I'm talking about, I don't know have any links anymore, sorry. I read it once and was pretty disgusted with it.
Dean the leering half-pedophile (not kidding about that) whose attitude about people in need was "eh, whatever let them be eaten, we have our own problems". Basically, it was implied that he only stayed around in the hunting life because he pretty much got kicks from killing and well, was a sociopath, more or less. Whereas Sam who got to take two opposite stances, the "I had the right to walk away from this life" he held later in the actual show AND Dean's "people need us, that's why we have to stay" just mere scenes later. The set-up was so clumsily manipulative to make the Sam-character "the hero" no matter what and the Dean-character wrong no matter what.
And seeing how that was something Kripke wrote, it tells me pretty clearly where his bias was in terms of the characters. Even if that changed somewhat later, I don't think he really outgrew this ideas completely.
I see what you mean. It's true, the more Dean is talked about in his absence, the more, well, absences he has.
But for myself, I don't mind that at all, actually. The other three are terrific actors, too, and Jared doesn't get nearly the credit he deserves, in my opinion. The expression on his face when Sam is trying to comfort Dean, or getting protective of him, or getting pissed at him because he won't take care of himself... I just love what he does. I can't get enough of it, frankly.
So, the more Jensen is on the screen, the less opportunity I have for scenes like the Sam vs. Cas scene in 4x16 or the Sam & Bobby scene in 7x09. When it comes to the brothers, I feel like I have two cups that are filled with scenes that build intimate understanding: Dean's is overflowing, and Sam's is not even half empty. I miss Sam. I want more of Sam. And if the brothers' relationship is the main character (as I see it, anyway :)), then that involves more of Sam thinking/talking/being about Dean.
Okay, I think I understand what you mean now. Reading your original post it felt like you felt Dean was treated unjustly by the writers, whereas now I think you say Sam is?! *is a bit confused*
Anyway, I can totally see your argument from the point of view of somebody who likes both boys (actors) equally. In fact, if I was a Sam-girl, I'd probably be majorly disappointed, because I think Dean is more of the emotional focus of the show, post-wall-breaking problems notwithstanding.
See, the thing is, Dean suffers when he suffers and he also suffers (badly) when Sam suffers. Whereas Sam suffers from his own problems, but for whatever reason (writers?) he doesn't seem to suffer as badly when Dean does. Sure, he worries and he isn't exactly okay with it, but he doesn't seem to be as devastated as Dean is (see Dean's alcoholism...)
Apparently Jared himself said in an interview - and, again, this is something I read in comments, so I couldn't point you to it - that Sam is focused on keeping his own sh*t together, but that Dean is focused on taking care of everyone else but himself.
So, no matter what other (sometimes rabid) Dean-girls say, I think he gets his fair share. (Even though I'm still griping about the writers' choice to send Sam to Hell as well, except longer and not just to "normal" Hell but in the cage with Lucifer, making Dean's tour seem comparatively mild.)
Well, I think Dean is shortchanged as the topic of conversation, as the main plot character. I was studying how TFW talks about each other because I had the feeling that Dean barely ever was, and I was right.
But what I mentioned in my original post was that I came to the conclusion that this meant that Dean barely had a plot, and Sam barely had a point of view. The imbalance reflects negatively on both brothers, not just Dean. I do love them both, and I want to know Sam as much as I've grown to know Dean. I guess I'm greedy! :)
I think part of us seeing Dean suffer when he suffers and when Sam suffers is that we're so burrowed down into Dean's point of view. Maybe if the point of view were balanced, we would see more of Sam suffering when Dean does. (He certainly suffered in "Mystery Spot," etc.) If the writing keeps putting his own plot as his main focus as well as the other characters' (Dean, Bobby) main focus, then that lends itself naturally to Sam worrying about Sam, and Dean/Bobby worrying about Sam. That's why I wish there were more of a balance. For one, the conversations about worrying about Sam get repetitive, and for another, we have far less of an intimate view of Sam than we do of Dean.
p.s. I hate and cannot understand the writers' decision to turn hell into a competition with that "Graceland" line and then with all of the following descriptions in S6. But that is a rant for another time.
SAM: You got to promise not to try to bring me back. DEAN: What? No, I didn't sign up for that. SAM: Dean-- DEAN: Your Hell is gonna make my tour look like Graceland. You want me just to sit by and do nothing? SAM: Once the Cage is shut, you can't go poking at it, Dean. It's too risky. DEAN: No, no, no, no, no. As if I'm just gonna let you rot in there. SAM: Yeah, you are. You don't have a choice. DEAN: You can't ask me to do this. SAM: I'm sorry, Dean. You have to. DEAN: So then what am I supposed to do? SAM: You go find Lisa. You pray to god she's dumb enough to take you in, and you -- you have barbecues and go to football games. You go live some normal, apple-pie life, Dean. Promise me.
Oh man, yes, I never actually caught that. Thanks for clarifying.
(Even reading that little scene made me go all teary-eyed there...)
And thanks for letting us exchange thoughts on our (my) favourite pastime - even if we don't agree 100 % on everything I'm still enjoying the hell out of it!
I have my own theory to explain this imbalance. You see, if members of TFW discuss another member that member can't actually be in the scene, right? And originally, the way Kripke had planned it, SPN was supposed to be about Sam Winchester and his brother, the supporting character. But then Jensen Ackles happened. And just by being in any given scene he makes that scene so much more than just the lines he has to say. I think it's the eyes. Or, you know, all his expressions. I am not fangirling here (trying not to, anyway), but in my opinion JA can convey just with a look more than JP with all his stomping about, flailing arms and his famous puppy-dog eyes. It's a true fact that Dean's role wasn't meant to be as major as it turned out. (Aside: did you know that Mark Pellegrino auditioned for Cas? Imagine!!)
So, the more talk about Dean, the less actual Dean. The more Dean talking about others the more Dean. And you know what? On show I'd rather have a scene with Dean and Bobby takling about Sam (cause then we get worried, angsty Dean) than Sam and Bobby talking about Dean (cause then we get no Dean). Even in that scene in 7.09 they had sleeping Dean in the background. It's just better with him there, even sleeping.
And this: So, if everyone’s primary relationship is with Dean, then if you take Dean out, what are you left with? A collection of related parts that have no center, no core. This is so so true. Let TFW talk about all the others. Make Sam the center of the attention. In a way I don't care, cause the real center, the real core, the heart of the whole show, is Dean. Has been from Whoa, easy, tiger.
So, really, the reason for the imbalance you point out? Dean gets talked about less by his team members becauce he needs to do the talking so he is actually on screen! He is and always will be the more interesting character. With all his flaws. Because he has real life problems in a supernatural world. Because he cares and worries about others. Because he shows and articulates that caring and worrying over and over again. Because he may come across as a dick at times but he dies for his brother. (Twice, but who's counting?) Because he gets betrayed by his own brother and by his best friend, but his capacity to forgive is endless.
So, bb, don't let the writers get you down! I find the best thing to do if show annoys me (and boy does it annoy me at times - sometimes I just don't want to hear about Sam and his problems anymore) is to go read fanfic. There are truly truly amazing stories out there that have me crying rivers onto my laptop for Dean. Stories that go where a TV show will never be able to...
Thank you so much for sharing this post and for going to all that work. That must have taken you ages!! I so much appreciate this kind of well thought out meta with hard proof for its theory that's not just but I like Dean better or but I like Sam better!
Food for thought on SPN, always a good thing. Hopefully I could give you a little in return :)
Reply
"Dean gets talked about less by his team members becauce he needs to do the talking so he is actually on screen!"
I just don't see this. The other characters manage to do plenty of talking about themselves and the other characters, it's only Dean who gets ignored/short-shrifted. The fact is Sam's there as much as anyone, except for a couple of episodes over the last 7 years and the other characters still find plenty to say about him. So I don't see how your scenario works at all. A character can be both on screen talking AND have other characters talking about him. Sam gets it all the damn time. Bobby gets it, Castiel gets it - both to a lesser extent because they are recurring characters as opposed to Lead Regulars.
I'm tired of the excuses for why no one cares about Dean within the show(because that is certainly how it comes across, imo) and for why somehow Dean's the only who doesn't get an actual storyline. If they can do it for every side character that comes along then they sure as heck should be able to do it for the other lead character. It shouldn't even be in question.
There is very little fanfic out that would satisfy me even if I thought it was a viable option to the actual show because it's nearly all some sort of "ship" fic and I have zero interest in any kind of ship fic, whether it's het or slash. Aside from those type of fics, there is very little that show COULD NOT do, they could go there, they just choose not.
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Besides, even if all the other TFW members talk less about Dean it's still a long way from making Dean a supporting character. Is what I think.
Actually, I suppose if you take it literally, Dean really is a supporting character in the way that he provides support for everyone else. ^^
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And don't forget Jensen originally auditioned for Sam.
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I did something there you should never do - I went by hearsay. Actually it's just something I picked up through random comments and took it at face value. Apparently it's not true and I apologize.
One thing I had read ages ago and what maybe stuck with me so I easily believed what I read was that JP had supposedly been excited to play "the reluctant hero", comparing Sam to The Matrix's Neo and Luke Skywalker of Star Wars. (Wikipedia)
Well, those two are the lead roles in their respective universes (with Han Solo being the - not unimportant - sidekick in Star Wars). But, you are right, it was nothing Kripke ever said.
And yes, I realize that JA originally auditioned for Sam. I've often pondered that and I ask myself if I wouldn't be a Sam-girl now if it had gone the other way, putting up arguments why Sam is the more interesting character... :)
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Have you ever read one of the earliest Pilot scripts as written by Kripke? It is very clearly conceptionalized with Sam as the lead and Dean as the sidekick (and a particularly unpleasant character with no redeeming qualities).
So I'd say that was Kripke's original idea. Well, his original idea was one character, a reporter travelling around and chasing ghost story/supernatural phenomena. The networks didn't like it so he volunteered some "so, how about brothers?" idea. But the original script isn't about two leads by a longshot. I just reckon that before that show went into even pre-production, a couple of people got their input and told him his main character was an ultra-Sue and the one supporting character wasn't even good enough to be considered anti-hero so you rooted for both of them to be killed on the spot.
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That'd be really interesting to see how it all actually developed even before it all went into production!
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Dean the leering half-pedophile (not kidding about that) whose attitude about people in need was "eh, whatever let them be eaten, we have our own problems". Basically, it was implied that he only stayed around in the hunting life because he pretty much got kicks from killing and well, was a sociopath, more or less. Whereas Sam who got to take two opposite stances, the "I had the right to walk away from this life" he held later in the actual show AND Dean's "people need us, that's why we have to stay" just mere scenes later. The set-up was so clumsily manipulative to make the Sam-character "the hero" no matter what and the Dean-character wrong no matter what.
And seeing how that was something Kripke wrote, it tells me pretty clearly where his bias was in terms of the characters. Even if that changed somewhat later, I don't think he really outgrew this ideas completely.
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But for myself, I don't mind that at all, actually. The other three are terrific actors, too, and Jared doesn't get nearly the credit he deserves, in my opinion. The expression on his face when Sam is trying to comfort Dean, or getting protective of him, or getting pissed at him because he won't take care of himself... I just love what he does. I can't get enough of it, frankly.
So, the more Jensen is on the screen, the less opportunity I have for scenes like the Sam vs. Cas scene in 4x16 or the Sam & Bobby scene in 7x09. When it comes to the brothers, I feel like I have two cups that are filled with scenes that build intimate understanding: Dean's is overflowing, and Sam's is not even half empty. I miss Sam. I want more of Sam. And if the brothers' relationship is the main character (as I see it, anyway :)), then that involves more of Sam thinking/talking/being about Dean.
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Anyway, I can totally see your argument from the point of view of somebody who likes both boys (actors) equally. In fact, if I was a Sam-girl, I'd probably be majorly disappointed, because I think Dean is more of the emotional focus of the show, post-wall-breaking problems notwithstanding.
See, the thing is, Dean suffers when he suffers and he also suffers (badly) when Sam suffers. Whereas Sam suffers from his own problems, but for whatever reason (writers?) he doesn't seem to suffer as badly when Dean does. Sure, he worries and he isn't exactly okay with it, but he doesn't seem to be as devastated as Dean is (see Dean's alcoholism...)
Apparently Jared himself said in an interview - and, again, this is something I read in comments, so I couldn't point you to it - that Sam is focused on keeping his own sh*t together, but that Dean is focused on taking care of everyone else but himself.
So, no matter what other (sometimes rabid) Dean-girls say, I think he gets his fair share. (Even though I'm still griping about the writers' choice to send Sam to Hell as well, except longer and not just to "normal" Hell but in the cage with Lucifer, making Dean's tour seem comparatively mild.)
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But what I mentioned in my original post was that I came to the conclusion that this meant that Dean barely had a plot, and Sam barely had a point of view. The imbalance reflects negatively on both brothers, not just Dean. I do love them both, and I want to know Sam as much as I've grown to know Dean. I guess I'm greedy! :)
I think part of us seeing Dean suffer when he suffers and when Sam suffers is that we're so burrowed down into Dean's point of view. Maybe if the point of view were balanced, we would see more of Sam suffering when Dean does. (He certainly suffered in "Mystery Spot," etc.) If the writing keeps putting his own plot as his main focus as well as the other characters' (Dean, Bobby) main focus, then that lends itself naturally to Sam worrying about Sam, and Dean/Bobby worrying about Sam. That's why I wish there were more of a balance. For one, the conversations about worrying about Sam get repetitive, and for another, we have far less of an intimate view of Sam than we do of Dean.
p.s. I hate and cannot understand the writers' decision to turn hell into a competition with that "Graceland" line and then with all of the following descriptions in S6. But that is a rant for another time.
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SAM: You got to promise not to try to bring me back.
DEAN: What? No, I didn't sign up for that.
SAM: Dean--
DEAN: Your Hell is gonna make my tour look like Graceland. You want me just to sit by and do nothing?
SAM: Once the Cage is shut, you can't go poking at it, Dean. It's too risky.
DEAN: No, no, no, no, no. As if I'm just gonna let you rot in there.
SAM: Yeah, you are. You don't have a choice.
DEAN: You can't ask me to do this.
SAM: I'm sorry, Dean. You have to.
DEAN: So then what am I supposed to do?
SAM: You go find Lisa. You pray to god she's dumb enough to take you in, and you -- you have barbecues and go to football games. You go live some normal, apple-pie life, Dean. Promise me.
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(Even reading that little scene made me go all teary-eyed there...)
And thanks for letting us exchange thoughts on our (my) favourite pastime - even if we don't agree 100 % on everything I'm still enjoying the hell out of it!
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