Okay ::whimper:: deep breath. Mounties In Pain, aka. Victoria's Secret, continues and goes into the second, and really altogether worse part
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I was never fannish about the show but I did enjoy it a lot. I remember the moment I realized that Fraser was going with Victoria I felt this enormous sense of betrayal. Hello, buddy show! Buddies are loyal to each other first and foremost. They don't choose the BOTW. It was just wrong. And then Ray shot Fraser! Aargh. So wrong!
This episode made me realize that Fraser, though quirkily charming, was not quite sane. Suddenly, Bob wasn't funny anymore because I was pretty sure he wasn't real. Poor Fraser. :-(
I remember the moment I realized that Fraser was going with Victoria I felt this enormous sense of betrayal.
Yeah, exactly!! I'm just not sure my love for the show can survive this!! It was this horrible betrayal by Fraser of Ray, but also of *me* by the show's writers. How can I trust them again?
This episode made me realize that Fraser, though quirkily charming, was not quite sane. Suddenly, Bob wasn't funny anymore because I was pretty sure he wasn't real. Poor Fraser. :-(
I think the reality of Bob is supposed to be pretty equivocal. Apparently there are episodes where people other than Fraser appear to be able to see him.
Anyway, yeah, there's something not quite right about Fraser, and it really shows in this episode. ::chin quiver::
--Okay, I can understand why someone would be investigating *Fraser* right now, but why is IA looking into Ray?
Maybe the money Fraser gave Ray during hurt!Ray scene in part 1 ("Like this makes a difference") was the rest of the dirty money Victoria slipped into his wallet. And then when Ray spent it, it got traced back to him? Maybe? So the cops thought he was in on the whole stolen money shindig.
Anyway *still loves these things you write* :D :D :D
Maybe the money Fraser gave Ray during hurt!Ray scene in part 1 ("Like this makes a difference") was the rest of the dirty money Victoria slipped into his wallet. And then when Ray spent it, it got traced back to him? Maybe? So the cops thought he was in on the whole stolen money shindig.
Okay, that makes sense. But Fraser and Ray both (undoubtedly) reported that Fraser paid back a debt to Ray and probably included some of the money. Wouldn't that be enough to remove the suspicion from Ray?
Maybe not. Being suspicious is part of IA's job, I guess.
I think Ray stands out in this. He just screams love throughout. I meant he look on his face when Fraser is arrested - heartbreaking!
Ray totally *does* shine in this. And he is so incredibly loving of Fraser, yes yes yes. But...meeep! After getting betrayed by Fraser like that, I'm not sure how healthy it is for him to keep on loving him.
It's not bad Fraser is letting his emotions he just picked the wrong person to do it with.
Well, except Fraser's emotions are...just out of control I mean letting his emotions go is good, but he doesn't have to let them make him stupid. Does it?
Ray though proves his worth. He understands Fraser and forgives him because he understands him.
Ray does prove his worth, but I think Fraser in a way proves himself unworth of him. ::wibble::
I'll check out your posts when I can face more thinking about it. :D
Well, except Fraser's emotions are...just out of control I mean letting his emotions go is good, but he doesn't have to let them make him stupid. Does it?
I think it's comparable to being drunk. If a person who drinks rarely (or never) goes on a bender, their behavior is obviously going to be aberrant, to say the least. If Fraser would explore his emotional side more often, this kind of disaster could be averted.
1 of 2 (aka, Oops, someone got talky again *g*)spikedluvApril 22 2007, 20:00:29 UTC
~This episode, even more than the last, just tore my heart out. The last ep was painful to watch because it felt like Fraser was being duped, not only by Victoria, but by himself, but this ep, oh, man, seeing the fallout from Victoria’s machinations made me hurt so badly for both Fraser and Ray, as well as all their friends.
~At the beginning, when Victoria is making it clear that she shot Jolly in self-defense only in the very broadest interpretation of self-defense, rejecting all of Fraser’s suggestions of seeking help within the law, pushing him to a place where he would be forced to break the law himself if he helped her, made me so angry with her.
~Fraser’s claim that, I know who she is, when he’s speaking with Bob in the break room made me think, how scary if that’s true. And how horrible if he’s so insistent on being there for Victoria, a woman who doesn’t deserve it, because his father wasn’t there for his mother, and he won’t make that mistake, even if in the process of not making that one he makes others which are worse
( ... )
Re: 1 of 2 (aka, Oops, someone got talky again *g*)sara_merry99April 23 2007, 02:31:17 UTC
~This episode, even more than the last, just tore my heart out. The last ep was painful to watch because it felt like Fraser was being duped, not only by Victoria, but by himself, but this ep, oh, man, seeing the fallout from Victoria’s machinations made me hurt so badly for both Fraser and Ray, as well as all their friends.
So much yes!! This was just agonizing on *so* many levels. The only thing this one had to keep it from being just beyond excruciating was that the strains between Fraser and Ray that came up in the last episode have been forgiven, so at least their friendship is solid all the way through. Thank God for small favors!
To know that the woman you profess to love is a lying, manipulative, murderer who has burned down your home, framed you for a crime you didn’t commit, shot your companion, and to still love her, to still think she deserves everything in my power to help you...Oh, that is...OMG. I was just assuming that Fraser was *wrong*, that he didn't know Victoria and was saying he did and being a fool. If he
( ... )
Re: 1 of 2 (aka, Oops, someone got talky again *g*)spikedluvApril 23 2007, 18:31:17 UTC
If he really *did* know her, every evil thing about her, and still love her and want to help her...that's *so* tragic.
I know! After I finished taking down the quote for the entire scene between Fraser and Bob I made a note that basically said, how scary is that, if that's true? Because, yes, Fraser knowing who and what she is, and still standing by her sort of makes my skin crawl because she has never done anything to deserve his support, and has in fact done everything to make him withdraw it. But I'm glad it made the ep better for you. *g*
::hands up:: I volunteer for that job!! :D
Hahahahaha! Can't you just imagine the scene where Fraser takes Ray aside and says, "Uh, Ray, there might be a way to prove that Victoria is still alive." and then proceeds, with lots of head tilts and eyebrow swipes and lip-licking, to tell Ray that there might in fact be some of Victoria's DNA...down there. *bg*
Re: 1 of 2 (aka, Oops, someone got talky again *g*)sara_merry99April 23 2007, 18:57:15 UTC
Because, yes, Fraser knowing who and what she is, and still standing by her sort of makes my skin crawl because she has never done anything to deserve his support, and has in fact done everything to make him withdraw it. But I'm glad it made the ep better for you. *g*
Better in a skin-crawly sort of way. Better in that I can almost sort of understand Fraser then, better than I can understand him being a fool, you know?
Can't you just imagine the scene where Fraser takes Ray aside and says, "Uh, Ray, there might be a way to prove that Victoria is still alive." and then proceeds, with lots of head tilts and eyebrow swipes and lip-licking, to tell Ray that there might in fact be some of Victoria's DNA...down there. *bg*
Oh, poor Fraser. I can almost picture it. Though of course it was a day or so later that it became an issue, so he would have bathed by then. Darn it!
2 of 2 (aka, Oops, someone got talky again *g*)spikedluvApril 22 2007, 20:02:21 UTC
~Did she *really* kill someone in the restaurant owner's family just so he wouldn't be around for folks to talk to? I bet she killed the guy who saw her. What an *evil* bitch. But there's still the cabbie, right?
Oh, wow, I did not even consider that! But she does tell Fraser that she’s tying up loose ends. Cree-py.
I actually haven't seen the slightest bit of love from her. Not the tiniest little touch of it.
This is the kind of love that causes someone to kill you, because if they can’t have you, no one else will. Obsessive and destructive and possessive. Men who isolate their girlfriends or wives, insisting they have no friends and must rely upon/be dependant solely on the man, just like Victoria is trying to isolate Fraser, taking away his friends and his support structure and his belief in the law.
And after I wrote this I read your next point, about cults and brain-washers. Yes, good point.
~Oh, I just *adore* that Fraser's not going to go with her!! ::hugs Fraser:: But I can't believe that she still thinks he going to
( ... )
Re: 2 of 2 (aka, Oops, someone got talky again *g*)charashiApril 23 2007, 01:03:32 UTC
The entirety of these two eps was a horribly written study of a completely OOC Fraser.
Wow, sorry, I have to butt in here, because I couldn't possibly disagree more. These are the episodes that turn Fraser from what is essentially a caricature into a person, with wants and desires and incredibly deep flaws, possibly even psychoses. Before this episode, Fraser is basically a Mountie doll -- perfect, unemotional, sexless and sympathetic. And then, with this episode, that caricature gets completely turned on its head and he becomes a human being who can be just as easily fucked up as anyone else. That's absolutely critical to his character... Otherwise what on earth is the point
( ... )
Re: 2 of 2 (aka, Oops, someone got talky again *g*)sara_merry99April 23 2007, 02:52:13 UTC
These are the episodes that turn Fraser from what is essentially a caricature into a person, with wants and desires and incredibly deep flaws, possibly even psychoses.
I get that. Though they could have done that in other ways that were less horrible. I adore Ray and no one ever pretends that he's perfect, right? I don't need my heroes to be perfect caricatures, but the way they did this to Fraser has essentially broken him in my mind. Because he went from being a good, decent man with a strong sense of justice to being a fuck-drunk pussy-whipped bail-jumper who'd leave his best friend to take the fall for something that he didn't do. And *that* is not a constellation of flaws I can deal with in a hero.
Talking to his dead father in public, embarrassing but manageable, running out on Ray like that. Unforgiveable.
With Victoria, for the first time, he actually questions his life -- he questions turning her in, and that leads to a spiral of guilt and shame and questioning that ultimately makes him question everything up to and
( ... )
Re: 2 of 2 (aka, Oops, someone got talky again *g*)charashiApril 23 2007, 05:20:27 UTC
But the point of this whole arc is the subversion. Fraser is perfect before this -- it's that characterization which sets up the dichotomy of the show. Fraser is perfect and alone and has to deal with the imperfect-ness and crowdedness of Chicago, just like he has to deal with having a real friend and having his father in his life for the first time and all these things... but he is still essentially untouchable. He takes Ray in stride and he takes his father in stride and he's still pretty much perfect.
To have him fall, it can't just be a little thing. It has to be huge. But, more than that, it has to be something that really does make him into a different person for a while. A lot of the best Due South fic (I particularly recommend cesperanza) explores the issues behind Fraser's becoming a Mountie -- the way he worships his father and his duty, the fact that he probably didn't really decide to become a Mountie, the fact that his life has really left him no chance for real interpersonal relationships before... In a way, Fraser is still kind
( ... )
Comments 66
This episode made me realize that Fraser, though quirkily charming, was not quite sane. Suddenly, Bob wasn't funny anymore because I was pretty sure he wasn't real. Poor Fraser. :-(
Reply
Yeah, exactly!! I'm just not sure my love for the show can survive this!! It was this horrible betrayal by Fraser of Ray, but also of *me* by the show's writers. How can I trust them again?
This episode made me realize that Fraser, though quirkily charming, was not quite sane. Suddenly, Bob wasn't funny anymore because I was pretty sure he wasn't real. Poor Fraser. :-(
I think the reality of Bob is supposed to be pretty equivocal. Apparently there are episodes where people other than Fraser appear to be able to see him.
Anyway, yeah, there's something not quite right about Fraser, and it really shows in this episode. ::chin quiver::
Reply
--Okay, I can understand why someone would be investigating *Fraser* right now, but why is IA looking into Ray?
Maybe the money Fraser gave Ray during hurt!Ray scene in part 1 ("Like this makes a difference") was the rest of the dirty money Victoria slipped into his wallet. And then when Ray spent it, it got traced back to him? Maybe? So the cops thought he was in on the whole stolen money shindig.
Anyway *still loves these things you write* :D :D :D
Reply
Maybe the money Fraser gave Ray during hurt!Ray scene in part 1 ("Like this makes a difference") was the rest of the dirty money Victoria slipped into his wallet. And then when Ray spent it, it got traced back to him? Maybe? So the cops thought he was in on the whole stolen money shindig.
Okay, that makes sense. But Fraser and Ray both (undoubtedly) reported that Fraser paid back a debt to Ray and probably included some of the money. Wouldn't that be enough to remove the suspicion from Ray?
Maybe not. Being suspicious is part of IA's job, I guess.
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Hmm, if I think too long on stuff like this, little bits of my brain start to explode. And not in a good way.
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That could be!
Hmm, if I think too long on stuff like this, little bits of my brain start to explode. And not in a good way.
Heee!! I'm just the opposite. I *love* pondering stuff like this! Well, usually. With this episode it's sort of painful, really.
Thanks for commenting and I hope your brain doesn't explode. :D
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Ray totally *does* shine in this. And he is so incredibly loving of Fraser, yes yes yes. But...meeep! After getting betrayed by Fraser like that, I'm not sure how healthy it is for him to keep on loving him.
It's not bad Fraser is letting his emotions he just picked the wrong person to do it with.
Well, except Fraser's emotions are...just out of control I mean letting his emotions go is good, but he doesn't have to let them make him stupid. Does it?
Ray though proves his worth. He understands Fraser and forgives him because he understands him.
Ray does prove his worth, but I think Fraser in a way proves himself unworth of him. ::wibble::
I'll check out your posts when I can face more thinking about it. :D
Reply
I think it's comparable to being drunk. If a person who drinks rarely (or never) goes on a bender, their behavior is obviously going to be aberrant, to say the least. If Fraser would explore his emotional side more often, this kind of disaster could be averted.
Reply
Oh, now *that* is an excellent point!!
I wonder if he learns that lesson from this experience.
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~At the beginning, when Victoria is making it clear that she shot Jolly in self-defense only in the very broadest interpretation of self-defense, rejecting all of Fraser’s suggestions of seeking help within the law, pushing him to a place where he would be forced to break the law himself if he helped her, made me so angry with her.
~Fraser’s claim that, I know who she is, when he’s speaking with Bob in the break room made me think, how scary if that’s true. And how horrible if he’s so insistent on being there for Victoria, a woman who doesn’t deserve it, because his father wasn’t there for his mother, and he won’t make that mistake, even if in the process of not making that one he makes others which are worse ( ... )
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So much yes!! This was just agonizing on *so* many levels. The only thing this one had to keep it from being just beyond excruciating was that the strains between Fraser and Ray that came up in the last episode have been forgiven, so at least their friendship is solid all the way through. Thank God for small favors!
To know that the woman you profess to love is a lying, manipulative, murderer who has burned down your home, framed you for a crime you didn’t commit, shot your companion, and to still love her, to still think she deserves everything in my power to help you...Oh, that is...OMG. I was just assuming that Fraser was *wrong*, that he didn't know Victoria and was saying he did and being a fool. If he ( ... )
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I know! After I finished taking down the quote for the entire scene between Fraser and Bob I made a note that basically said, how scary is that, if that's true? Because, yes, Fraser knowing who and what she is, and still standing by her sort of makes my skin crawl because she has never done anything to deserve his support, and has in fact done everything to make him withdraw it. But I'm glad it made the ep better for you. *g*
::hands up:: I volunteer for that job!! :D
Hahahahaha! Can't you just imagine the scene where Fraser takes Ray aside and says, "Uh, Ray, there might be a way to prove that Victoria is still alive." and then proceeds, with lots of head tilts and eyebrow swipes and lip-licking, to tell Ray that there might in fact be some of Victoria's DNA...down there. *bg*
Reply
Better in a skin-crawly sort of way. Better in that I can almost sort of understand Fraser then, better than I can understand him being a fool, you know?
Can't you just imagine the scene where Fraser takes Ray aside and says, "Uh, Ray, there might be a way to prove that Victoria is still alive." and then proceeds, with lots of head tilts and eyebrow swipes and lip-licking, to tell Ray that there might in fact be some of Victoria's DNA...down there. *bg*
Oh, poor Fraser. I can almost picture it. Though of course it was a day or so later that it became an issue, so he would have bathed by then. Darn it!
Reply
Oh, wow, I did not even consider that! But she does tell Fraser that she’s tying up loose ends. Cree-py.
I actually haven't seen the slightest bit of love from her. Not the tiniest little touch of it.
This is the kind of love that causes someone to kill you, because if they can’t have you, no one else will. Obsessive and destructive and possessive. Men who isolate their girlfriends or wives, insisting they have no friends and must rely upon/be dependant solely on the man, just like Victoria is trying to isolate Fraser, taking away his friends and his support structure and his belief in the law.
And after I wrote this I read your next point, about cults and brain-washers. Yes, good point.
~Oh, I just *adore* that Fraser's not going to go with her!! ::hugs Fraser:: But I can't believe that she still thinks he going to ( ... )
Reply
Wow, sorry, I have to butt in here, because I couldn't possibly disagree more. These are the episodes that turn Fraser from what is essentially a caricature into a person, with wants and desires and incredibly deep flaws, possibly even psychoses. Before this episode, Fraser is basically a Mountie doll -- perfect, unemotional, sexless and sympathetic. And then, with this episode, that caricature gets completely turned on its head and he becomes a human being who can be just as easily fucked up as anyone else. That's absolutely critical to his character... Otherwise what on earth is the point ( ... )
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I get that. Though they could have done that in other ways that were less horrible. I adore Ray and no one ever pretends that he's perfect, right? I don't need my heroes to be perfect caricatures, but the way they did this to Fraser has essentially broken him in my mind. Because he went from being a good, decent man with a strong sense of justice to being a fuck-drunk pussy-whipped bail-jumper who'd leave his best friend to take the fall for something that he didn't do. And *that* is not a constellation of flaws I can deal with in a hero.
Talking to his dead father in public, embarrassing but manageable, running out on Ray like that. Unforgiveable.
With Victoria, for the first time, he actually questions his life -- he questions turning her in, and that leads to a spiral of guilt and shame and questioning that ultimately makes him question everything up to and ( ... )
Reply
To have him fall, it can't just be a little thing. It has to be huge. But, more than that, it has to be something that really does make him into a different person for a while. A lot of the best Due South fic (I particularly recommend cesperanza) explores the issues behind Fraser's becoming a Mountie -- the way he worships his father and his duty, the fact that he probably didn't really decide to become a Mountie, the fact that his life has really left him no chance for real interpersonal relationships before... In a way, Fraser is still kind ( ... )
Reply
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