Okay ::whimper:: deep breath. Mounties In Pain, aka. Victoria's Secret, continues and goes into the second, and really altogether worse part
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Re: 2 of 2 (aka, Oops, someone got talky again *g*)charashiApril 23 2007, 01:03:32 UTC
The entirety of these two eps was a horribly written study of a completely OOC Fraser.
Wow, sorry, I have to butt in here, because I couldn't possibly disagree more. These are the episodes that turn Fraser from what is essentially a caricature into a person, with wants and desires and incredibly deep flaws, possibly even psychoses. Before this episode, Fraser is basically a Mountie doll -- perfect, unemotional, sexless and sympathetic. And then, with this episode, that caricature gets completely turned on its head and he becomes a human being who can be just as easily fucked up as anyone else. That's absolutely critical to his character... Otherwise what on earth is the point?
Someone smarter than I (and I wish I could remember who) wrote an amazing essay about all the different things Victoria represents to Fraser; I'm actually using a great deal of that in the Fraser/Victoria fic I'm writing now. But, basically, what I love about these episodes, and the entire relationship dynamic, is the way she just completely subverts everything for him -- he almost becomes an entirely different person, that much is true. But it's not because he's OOC, at least, not in my opinion -- it's because most of what he is before that is a construct, something created and cultivated and crafted over 34 years of repression and servitude. With Victoria, for the first time, he actually questions his life -- he questions turning her in, and that leads to a spiral of guilt and shame and questioning that ultimately makes him question everything up to and including being a Mountie.
Sorry for the ramble, I just have to be protective over this because I honestly think these episodes, and what they do for Fraser's character, are incredible television. I make no secret of the fact that I'm a huge S3/S4 fan, but I think these two episodes are the best in the entire series, hands down (even if I can watch "Seeing is Believing" about a hundred thousand times).
Re: 2 of 2 (aka, Oops, someone got talky again *g*)sara_merry99April 23 2007, 02:52:13 UTC
These are the episodes that turn Fraser from what is essentially a caricature into a person, with wants and desires and incredibly deep flaws, possibly even psychoses.
I get that. Though they could have done that in other ways that were less horrible. I adore Ray and no one ever pretends that he's perfect, right? I don't need my heroes to be perfect caricatures, but the way they did this to Fraser has essentially broken him in my mind. Because he went from being a good, decent man with a strong sense of justice to being a fuck-drunk pussy-whipped bail-jumper who'd leave his best friend to take the fall for something that he didn't do. And *that* is not a constellation of flaws I can deal with in a hero.
Talking to his dead father in public, embarrassing but manageable, running out on Ray like that. Unforgiveable.
With Victoria, for the first time, he actually questions his life -- he questions turning her in, and that leads to a spiral of guilt and shame and questioning that ultimately makes him question everything up to and including being a Mountie.
I'm good with questioning, absolutely. Unexamined lives not being worth living and all that. Sure. But if you're right that he's scratching down through the construct (though everybody's persona and personality are constructs, that's not unique to Fraser) and finding what's genuinely under there, then I have to say I don't like him much.
These two episodes are fantastic television and completely important for understanding Fraser, I agree.
But I wasn't kidding when I said they may have broken the series for me. And I will *never* watch them again. It was just too excruciating.
Re: 2 of 2 (aka, Oops, someone got talky again *g*)charashiApril 23 2007, 05:20:27 UTC
But the point of this whole arc is the subversion. Fraser is perfect before this -- it's that characterization which sets up the dichotomy of the show. Fraser is perfect and alone and has to deal with the imperfect-ness and crowdedness of Chicago, just like he has to deal with having a real friend and having his father in his life for the first time and all these things... but he is still essentially untouchable. He takes Ray in stride and he takes his father in stride and he's still pretty much perfect.
To have him fall, it can't just be a little thing. It has to be huge. But, more than that, it has to be something that really does make him into a different person for a while. A lot of the best Due South fic (I particularly recommend cesperanza) explores the issues behind Fraser's becoming a Mountie -- the way he worships his father and his duty, the fact that he probably didn't really decide to become a Mountie, the fact that his life has really left him no chance for real interpersonal relationships before... In a way, Fraser is still kind of an adolescent when Victoria happens to him, and she opens a window for him to leave all of his old life behind.
And I didn't mean to imply that the person he is when he's with Victoria is the real him; it's more like it's a person he's exploring the possibility of being, and thinking "what if I like this more than who I am?" Because, hey, he could have people who love him (Victoria), and he could not have to be responsible every minute of every day, and he could be allowed to screw up and feel things and want things and be upset, and the entire world wouldn't rely on him for the answers. And those are all incredibly powerful for someone who's never really questioned these things before. At least, that's my interpretation -- I think Fraser is a beautifully complex character.
He's not sane and it is terrible and it is difficult to forgive, but it has to be that big, or it wouldn't matter nearly so much. And even if you do just take the shallower approach... he's a guy who got really fucked by love, and by guilt.
Re: 2 of 2 (aka, Oops, someone got talky again *g*)sara_merry99April 23 2007, 15:50:15 UTC
Fraser is perfect before this -- it's that characterization which sets up the dichotomy of the show.
Maybe that's where you and I are running into disagreement, because I don't think Fraser was ever perfect. He was always naive, morally unbending at the most inconvenient times, bitchy sometimes (though that mostly with Dief), demanding, more than a little holier-than-thou, etc. There's a reason why the other Mounties at his post in the Yukon didn't like him, even before the series started.
He put all of these character flaws to good ends (helping folks) but he still *had* them.
So I guess I didn't feel the need for them to have added a bunch of *worse* character flaws to balance him out. Some maybe, but abandoning a loyal friend for a woman he *knows* is a murderous, scheming bitch seems a bit over the top.
I have read cesperanza's fic, Eight Sessions in particular is a brilliant examination of this.
Anyway, I don't know that I particularly disagree with your interpretation...but to the extent that I don't, it makes me dislike Fraser. And, honestly, I don't watch TV so I can dislike the main characters. If I want to go around disliking people I can find that at my retail job. :D
But you make some *really* excellent points. And I can get what you're saying that he's exploring a possibility of an alternate Fraser with Victoria. I'm just not entirely clear on why he would want to even entertain *that* version of himself.
Re: 2 of 2 (aka, Oops, someone got talky again *g*)charashiApril 23 2007, 16:27:40 UTC
I suppose the point I'm making is that it's not that version that's necessarily appealing to him -- it's that there's any other possibility. He doesn't really have the time or the capacity to examine just what that means during the course of the episode, because he's completely blinded by Victoria at that point.
And eh, I'm really unconvinced by the "Fraser totally has flaws in season one" argument. No offense, not meaning you in particular, just that attitude in general. His flaws are really small at that point and in my memory aren't really explored or examined in any serious way until these episodes. And that's the way the show was written, really. In season two they actually start dealing with his flaws, but I won't spoil you for all that.
The one thing they really do show in s1 is that he's fairly unpersonable, but even then-- it's never really clear why the other Mounties don't like him. I mean, look how many people in Chicago do like him; not at first, but once they get to know him. IDK, the other things I don't think really count so much. He can't lie! Oh no! He's sometimes slightly naive, except that makes him totally endearing! He's holier-than-thou, but (in s1) he's pretty much always right!
Re: 2 of 2 (aka, Oops, someone got talky again *g*)sara_merry99April 23 2007, 18:04:31 UTC
I suppose the point I'm making is that it's not that version that's necessarily appealing to him -- it's that there's any other possibility.
This I can totally see and totally agree with. And also that he didn't have time to extrapolate from this, because he was just blinded and caught up in the whole Victoria thing, and wobbling from so tangled up in her that he was defending her in the face of *all* the evidence to seeing her clearly (and yet still wanting her), etc.
Re: 2 of 2 (aka, Oops, someone got talky again *g*)charashiApril 23 2007, 19:12:42 UTC
IDK if you're at all interested, but I'm actually working on a big fat fic right now that goes very deeply into all these issues. The "frame" story is F/K, but the main plot is Fraser/Victoria and is pretty much entirely about all the different things that Victoria means to Fraser.
Granted, it's not going to be finished for, like... months, so it's probably not worth my telling you about it. *g* But that's why I'm so interested in this issue, anyway.
Re: 2 of 2 (aka, Oops, someone got talky again *g*)charashiApril 23 2007, 05:26:36 UTC
I do also agree with melodyunity's intepretation below, and that's part of the thing I'm trying to convey: Fraser's life is incredibly lonely and, like I said, I see him very much as a kid in certain ways, trying desperately to connect with someone. And with Victoria, he thinks he has that, and that's what leads him into this questioning process I'm talking about; like, if the only way I can avoid loneliness is to not be myself (i.e., by not turning Victoria in), then why should I be this person I don't even like most of the time (i.e., his father)?
Re: 2 of 2 (aka, Oops, someone got talky again *g*)sara_merry99April 23 2007, 15:51:48 UTC
Fraser's life is incredibly lonely and, like I said, I see him very much as a kid in certain ways, trying desperately to connect with someone. And with Victoria, he thinks he has that
This is something I can *totally* see and that does explain a lot, though not all, of what he does here. I can see that feeling of connection being a *powerful* drug to someone who hasn't had the most basic human connections since he was a small child.
Re: 2 of 2 (aka, Oops, someone got talky again *g*)spikedluvApril 23 2007, 18:24:03 UTC
Before this episode, Fraser is basically a Mountie doll -- perfect, unemotional, sexless and sympathetic.
I disagree. I think Fraser was far from perfect and emotionless, though it was very subtly done. For example, we often saw him manipulate Ray into helping him, we saw him show emotion in his father's cabin and when he was going to be forced to kill Dief.
I think most writers realize that you can't have a perfect hero because there has to be something for people to relate to. He can't be a complete mess, but he has to have flaws, and I believe that Fraser has them, even if they're not readily apparent at first glance.
it's because most of what he is before that is a construct
If you're suggesting that what he is when he's with Victoria (forgetting his friends and being late for work being just two of the least changes that occur in him), is who Fraser really is, then I'd have to say he's not someone I'd like very much.
I still believe that this behavior is completely OOC for Fraser. Not because Fraser thinks he’s in love with Victoria, because the intensity of their first meeting would most certainly forge a connection (though I’d argue it would neither be a lasting nor a particularly deep connection if not for Fraser’s own loneliness), nor because he knows she’s a criminal and is still willing to stand by her, but because the underlying premise of their entire relationship is Fraser’s guilt (and Victoria’s love/hate and desire for revenge) as he continues to secondguess his own decision to turn Victoria over to the authorities in the first place.
I could understand Fraser feeling bad that the woman he loved had to spend 10 years in jail, but I don’t understand him questioning his own actions in upholding the law. He did not cause her to commit a crime, and if there were extenuating circumstances, as she claimed, they would have been raised at trial and used to either get her off or get her sentence reduced. From what we’ve seen, Fraser has been stalwart when it comes to obeying and upholding the law, to the point where he would have shot and killed Dief himself to do so.
Fraser’s guilt in turning Victoria in and questioning his own actions in upholding the law, that is what I see as Fraser’s underlying OOC behavior, and because of that, everything that follows from it and builds upon it is OOC as well. At least, imo. *g*
Re: 2 of 2 (aka, Oops, someone got talky again *g*)sara_merry99April 23 2007, 18:54:45 UTC
Fraser’s guilt in turning Victoria in and questioning his own actions in upholding the law, that is what I see as Fraser’s underlying OOC behavior, and because of that, everything that follows from it and builds upon it is OOC as well. At least, imo. *g*
::nods nods:: I agree with you totally. And yet this is what so much of the episode hinges on, this feeling of guilt and that he couldn't trust his actions then. ::nods nods::
Re: 2 of 2 (aka, Oops, someone got talky again *g*)charashiApril 23 2007, 19:10:38 UTC
If you read my later comments, I address this point. I think he knows deep down that he did the right thing -- but in doing so, he also blocked any chance of this possible other life, and that's part of the thing that's torturing him so much about it. Like, if he had just let her go, couldn't he have wound up happier?
There's also the fact that it seems to be the first (and maybe only) time he really is questioning the ethics of his actions vis a vis her role in the robbery. It seems like he manages to convince himself that she might have been unfairly harshly punished because she was "forced" into it by Jolly.
Wow, sorry, I have to butt in here, because I couldn't possibly disagree more. These are the episodes that turn Fraser from what is essentially a caricature into a person, with wants and desires and incredibly deep flaws, possibly even psychoses. Before this episode, Fraser is basically a Mountie doll -- perfect, unemotional, sexless and sympathetic. And then, with this episode, that caricature gets completely turned on its head and he becomes a human being who can be just as easily fucked up as anyone else. That's absolutely critical to his character... Otherwise what on earth is the point?
Someone smarter than I (and I wish I could remember who) wrote an amazing essay about all the different things Victoria represents to Fraser; I'm actually using a great deal of that in the Fraser/Victoria fic I'm writing now. But, basically, what I love about these episodes, and the entire relationship dynamic, is the way she just completely subverts everything for him -- he almost becomes an entirely different person, that much is true. But it's not because he's OOC, at least, not in my opinion -- it's because most of what he is before that is a construct, something created and cultivated and crafted over 34 years of repression and servitude. With Victoria, for the first time, he actually questions his life -- he questions turning her in, and that leads to a spiral of guilt and shame and questioning that ultimately makes him question everything up to and including being a Mountie.
Sorry for the ramble, I just have to be protective over this because I honestly think these episodes, and what they do for Fraser's character, are incredible television. I make no secret of the fact that I'm a huge S3/S4 fan, but I think these two episodes are the best in the entire series, hands down (even if I can watch "Seeing is Believing" about a hundred thousand times).
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I get that. Though they could have done that in other ways that were less horrible. I adore Ray and no one ever pretends that he's perfect, right? I don't need my heroes to be perfect caricatures, but the way they did this to Fraser has essentially broken him in my mind. Because he went from being a good, decent man with a strong sense of justice to being a fuck-drunk pussy-whipped bail-jumper who'd leave his best friend to take the fall for something that he didn't do. And *that* is not a constellation of flaws I can deal with in a hero.
Talking to his dead father in public, embarrassing but manageable, running out on Ray like that. Unforgiveable.
With Victoria, for the first time, he actually questions his life -- he questions turning her in, and that leads to a spiral of guilt and shame and questioning that ultimately makes him question everything up to and including being a Mountie.
I'm good with questioning, absolutely. Unexamined lives not being worth living and all that. Sure. But if you're right that he's scratching down through the construct (though everybody's persona and personality are constructs, that's not unique to Fraser) and finding what's genuinely under there, then I have to say I don't like him much.
These two episodes are fantastic television and completely important for understanding Fraser, I agree.
But I wasn't kidding when I said they may have broken the series for me. And I will *never* watch them again. It was just too excruciating.
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To have him fall, it can't just be a little thing. It has to be huge. But, more than that, it has to be something that really does make him into a different person for a while. A lot of the best Due South fic (I particularly recommend cesperanza) explores the issues behind Fraser's becoming a Mountie -- the way he worships his father and his duty, the fact that he probably didn't really decide to become a Mountie, the fact that his life has really left him no chance for real interpersonal relationships before... In a way, Fraser is still kind of an adolescent when Victoria happens to him, and she opens a window for him to leave all of his old life behind.
And I didn't mean to imply that the person he is when he's with Victoria is the real him; it's more like it's a person he's exploring the possibility of being, and thinking "what if I like this more than who I am?" Because, hey, he could have people who love him (Victoria), and he could not have to be responsible every minute of every day, and he could be allowed to screw up and feel things and want things and be upset, and the entire world wouldn't rely on him for the answers. And those are all incredibly powerful for someone who's never really questioned these things before. At least, that's my interpretation -- I think Fraser is a beautifully complex character.
He's not sane and it is terrible and it is difficult to forgive, but it has to be that big, or it wouldn't matter nearly so much. And even if you do just take the shallower approach... he's a guy who got really fucked by love, and by guilt.
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Maybe that's where you and I are running into disagreement, because I don't think Fraser was ever perfect. He was always naive, morally unbending at the most inconvenient times, bitchy sometimes (though that mostly with Dief), demanding, more than a little holier-than-thou, etc. There's a reason why the other Mounties at his post in the Yukon didn't like him, even before the series started.
He put all of these character flaws to good ends (helping folks) but he still *had* them.
So I guess I didn't feel the need for them to have added a bunch of *worse* character flaws to balance him out. Some maybe, but abandoning a loyal friend for a woman he *knows* is a murderous, scheming bitch seems a bit over the top.
I have read cesperanza's fic, Eight Sessions in particular is a brilliant examination of this.
Anyway, I don't know that I particularly disagree with your interpretation...but to the extent that I don't, it makes me dislike Fraser. And, honestly, I don't watch TV so I can dislike the main characters. If I want to go around disliking people I can find that at my retail job. :D
But you make some *really* excellent points. And I can get what you're saying that he's exploring a possibility of an alternate Fraser with Victoria. I'm just not entirely clear on why he would want to even entertain *that* version of himself.
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And eh, I'm really unconvinced by the "Fraser totally has flaws in season one" argument. No offense, not meaning you in particular, just that attitude in general. His flaws are really small at that point and in my memory aren't really explored or examined in any serious way until these episodes. And that's the way the show was written, really. In season two they actually start dealing with his flaws, but I won't spoil you for all that.
The one thing they really do show in s1 is that he's fairly unpersonable, but even then-- it's never really clear why the other Mounties don't like him. I mean, look how many people in Chicago do like him; not at first, but once they get to know him. IDK, the other things I don't think really count so much. He can't lie! Oh no! He's sometimes slightly naive, except that makes him totally endearing! He's holier-than-thou, but (in s1) he's pretty much always right!
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This I can totally see and totally agree with. And also that he didn't have time to extrapolate from this, because he was just blinded and caught up in the whole Victoria thing, and wobbling from so tangled up in her that he was defending her in the face of *all* the evidence to seeing her clearly (and yet still wanting her), etc.
Thanks!
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Granted, it's not going to be finished for, like... months, so it's probably not worth my telling you about it. *g* But that's why I'm so interested in this issue, anyway.
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I'll definitely be looking forward to it when it comes through. You'll announce it on ds_slash or somewhere, right?
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This is something I can *totally* see and that does explain a lot, though not all, of what he does here. I can see that feeling of connection being a *powerful* drug to someone who hasn't had the most basic human connections since he was a small child.
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I disagree. I think Fraser was far from perfect and emotionless, though it was very subtly done. For example, we often saw him manipulate Ray into helping him, we saw him show emotion in his father's cabin and when he was going to be forced to kill Dief.
I think most writers realize that you can't have a perfect hero because there has to be something for people to relate to. He can't be a complete mess, but he has to have flaws, and I believe that Fraser has them, even if they're not readily apparent at first glance.
it's because most of what he is before that is a construct
If you're suggesting that what he is when he's with Victoria (forgetting his friends and being late for work being just two of the least changes that occur in him), is who Fraser really is, then I'd have to say he's not someone I'd like very much.
I still believe that this behavior is completely OOC for Fraser. Not because Fraser thinks he’s in love with Victoria, because the intensity of their first meeting would most certainly forge a connection (though I’d argue it would neither be a lasting nor a particularly deep connection if not for Fraser’s own loneliness), nor because he knows she’s a criminal and is still willing to stand by her, but because the underlying premise of their entire relationship is Fraser’s guilt (and Victoria’s love/hate and desire for revenge) as he continues to secondguess his own decision to turn Victoria over to the authorities in the first place.
I could understand Fraser feeling bad that the woman he loved had to spend 10 years in jail, but I don’t understand him questioning his own actions in upholding the law. He did not cause her to commit a crime, and if there were extenuating circumstances, as she claimed, they would have been raised at trial and used to either get her off or get her sentence reduced. From what we’ve seen, Fraser has been stalwart when it comes to obeying and upholding the law, to the point where he would have shot and killed Dief himself to do so.
Fraser’s guilt in turning Victoria in and questioning his own actions in upholding the law, that is what I see as Fraser’s underlying OOC behavior, and because of that, everything that follows from it and builds upon it is OOC as well. At least, imo. *g*
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::nods nods:: I agree with you totally. And yet this is what so much of the episode hinges on, this feeling of guilt and that he couldn't trust his actions then. ::nods nods::
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There's also the fact that it seems to be the first (and maybe only) time he really is questioning the ethics of his actions vis a vis her role in the robbery. It seems like he manages to convince himself that she might have been unfairly harshly punished because she was "forced" into it by Jolly.
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