I enjoy this post. Like you, I can barely tolerate present!John. But I like past!John well enough. IDEK. I just can't deal with this consistent glamorisation of emotionally abusive parental dicks. It's, like, validating Dean and Sam's inferiority complexes. Blegh.
We got the whole thing filtered through Dean's perspective, rather than John's, and it ended up being a really interesting examination of how and why Dean idealized his father, which turned into a direct commentary on why we shouldn't.
Yeah, well-put.
Sam is enough of a reprehensible fuck-up on his own, tyvm. No need to go around muddying the waters trying to blame him for his terrible childhood too. CAS HAVE MERCY.
omg, RIGHT. This annoys the EVERLOVING FUCK out of me. I have the same ish with all those other shows that equate an emotionally abusive parent to their wayward offspring. NO.
I want to enjoy it, because I think it could be a really powerful rebuttal to all the othering of abuse which is so damaging and gross. I like that I find John likeable and then abhorrent, because that's a complex, honest story about someone who has the potential to be good taking the wrong path. But half of that equation is that we don't lose sight of how very cruel and selfish he was in what he did to those kids, and that's where I'm not sure the show follows through.
This annoys the EVERLOVING FUCK out of me. I have the same ish with all those other shows that equate an emotionally abusive parent to their wayward offspring. NO.
UGH YES. Victim-blaming gives me the HULKRAGE anyway but this particular type is especially reprehensible to me, because it's so insidious.
Re: The supernatural is magically different!pocochinaJune 28 2012, 05:25:32 UTC
I guess my interpretation of the "too alike" thing wasn't equivalency, just, "They're both ferociously stubborn, and John apparently doesn't know himself well enough to recognize it in his own son."That I could get behind, but I don't think it's always the story the show's trying to tell? There's a line (I think when they're burying Adam?) where Dean says "that's why you and Dad butted heads so much, you're so much alike" or words to that effect. And that is a false equivocation, one which I think the narrative means to endorse
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Re: The supernatural is magically different!auroramamaJune 29 2012, 02:15:51 UTC
That I could get behind, but I don't think it's always the story the show's trying to tell? There's a line (I think when they're burying Adam?) where Dean says "that's why you and Dad butted heads so much, you're so much alike" or words to that effect. And that is a false equivocation, one which I think the narrative means to endorse.
Yeah, you're right -- the show just loves this sort of trope. "Gee, Sam disagreed with John, but really (surprise twist!) they're practically the same person! O, the irony!" And Dean finding out that he doesn't like Sam being less morally squeamish as much as he thought he would. ("They can be the same person if they want to, but it's a terrible idea! Oooh, how will Dean stop Sam from imitating him?")
I think Show doesn't always know whether it's a smart show playing dumb or a dumb show taking itself too seriously. So how can we be sure?
teenagers can be reasonably expected to be ferociously stubborn? So I've heard. But Dean wasn't. I've mentioned elsewhere my theory that Dean's uncanny obedience,
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Re: The supernatural is magically different!obsessive_a101June 29 2012, 04:36:46 UTC
The older sibling and younger sibling dynamic/expectations you describe are definitely ringing true to me here. LOL! I'm the older sibling, and some times I look at my younger sister with her headphones plugged in and her chat box opened for friends while my parents are trying to talk to her, and wonder if I really was never quite a teenager as my aunts and uncles like to tease me and my parents about.
Hee! More think-y thoughts! I particularly found your opening thoughts comparing Bill Adama and John interesting, because I think I understand why in terms of the trope, why John isn't quite as aggravating to you as Bill. I think, partially, its that the trajectory in which the show takes each character and treats the dynamics of their relationship with the other characters very differently (also, John dies early on, whereas Bill stayed in all the way to the bitter end). The thing is young!John is rather innocent, and there's actually a moment, a "turning point" at which something happens that makes him into a paranoid, revenge-obsessed man, who could know longer see beyond his own haze of pain to realize what he's doing to his children. (And I think this is where a lot of my sympathy for Dean comes from. At least Sam got to rebel, but my heart hurts for Dean in the striga/witch (spelling?) story-line. Where, honestly? I thought John comes off as a "bit" of a jerk for deliberately sending him on that hunt to take care of the witch. I
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Pt 2, because my rambling exceeded comment limits. LOL - wow.obsessive_a101June 29 2012, 05:07:24 UTC
That said, my own feelings for John are rather vague and undefined. I don't like the trope, but I don't quite despise it either. (As you can probably tell from my fondness for woobie Bill with all his mistakes and all his guilt.) I don't think I'm as fond of John as some others, but I don't hate him. Though - I'd probably slap him upside the head a few times as well.
OH! Also, I don't get why the show uses the "righteous man" title as if it's a good thing. The first time I heard my sister spoil me a bit for Dean's role, a trigger went off in my head at that label. Righteousness isn't exactly a completely positive quality is it? I mean a person who is constantly absolutely certain they are morally right or acting for the morally "right" cause easily falls into the mistake of equivocating things in moral absolutes, or worse, equivocating morality in terms of only their own actions instead of the world and people around them. >>" I am... possibly making no sense at this point. (^_^)"
Re: Pt 2, because my rambling exceeded comment limits. LOL - wow.pocochinaJune 29 2012, 05:39:02 UTC
Also, I don't get why the show uses the "righteous man" title as if it's a good thing.
I think that's a really good point, and I wouldn't be surprised if the word weren't chosen intentionally because of its connotations of overzealousness. But then, I think it's mostly contextualized in the more conventional sense - the enemy of the demons, the one chosen by Heaven to stop the apocalypse, all those things have so much mythological weight that a little bit of saying "oh it's complicated" doesn't really lead to a balanced perspective.
Re: Pt 2, because my rambling exceeded comment limits. LOL - wow.obsessive_a101June 29 2012, 05:52:18 UTC
Ah - that would make sense. (^_^)" I mean, it sounds like a weighty title, it's just... eh. When it leaks into fandom (if it does) and when Dean, ironically, tells Sam that he is "self-righteous", I will not kid I *winced* and had to resist hitting my head somewhere hard. LOL
Papa John makes me furious, seeing how he treated his boys. That was sustained abuse and I don't see how exposing them to monsters at such a young age was 'protecting them from the supernatural'. On top of constantly endangering them, he made it so they couldn't have any stable friends, teachers, neighbours - anyone to love except each other. They ended up so emotionally damaged, and dependent on each other, that when one dies the other sells his soul/starts drinking demon blood! RAGE!
(I keep telling myself John's only fictional, and I sneer at people who hate Sam, Dean or Cas, so I know I'm being hypocritical here. But it's the hand-waving of what John did that really makes me mad)
Now, they're both grown-ups now and I know you can't blame their childhood for ALL their screw-ups. But when people argue that point I do wonder WHEN they are supposed to have dealt with their issues and developed better coping skills? They've both been fire-fighting constantly since S1.
Oh, and I adore your metas Pocochina! So intelligent and interesting. And I love the way you obviously love Sam but don't spare him at all :D I love my Sam cause I have similar flaws (you know, minus the demon blood).
I relate to Sam a lot too, sometimes uncomfortably so. Admittedly I've started to go a bit easier on him lately, I think; I'm having a tough time bringing myself to find fault when every page he ever dog-eared and burger he turned his nose up at are being trumpeted as ~incontrovertible proof that driving him to the brink of suicide and then roofieing him and pimping him out was not just understandable behavior but grounds to fuss over Poor Woobie Dean.
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We got the whole thing filtered through Dean's perspective, rather than John's, and it ended up being a really interesting examination of how and why Dean idealized his father, which turned into a direct commentary on why we shouldn't.
Yeah, well-put.
Sam is enough of a reprehensible fuck-up on his own, tyvm. No need to go around muddying the waters trying to blame him for his terrible childhood too. CAS HAVE MERCY.
omg, RIGHT. This annoys the EVERLOVING FUCK out of me. I have the same ish with all those other shows that equate an emotionally abusive parent to their wayward offspring. NO.
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This annoys the EVERLOVING FUCK out of me. I have the same ish with all those other shows that equate an emotionally abusive parent to their wayward offspring. NO.
UGH YES. Victim-blaming gives me the HULKRAGE anyway but this particular type is especially reprehensible to me, because it's so insidious.
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Yeah, you're right -- the show just loves this sort of trope. "Gee, Sam disagreed with John, but really (surprise twist!) they're practically the same person! O, the irony!" And Dean finding out that he doesn't like Sam being less morally squeamish as much as he thought he would. ("They can be the same person if they want to, but it's a terrible idea! Oooh, how will Dean stop Sam from imitating him?")
I think Show doesn't always know whether it's a smart show playing dumb or a dumb show taking itself too seriously. So how can we be sure?
teenagers can be reasonably expected to be ferociously stubborn? So I've heard. But Dean wasn't. I've mentioned elsewhere my theory that Dean's uncanny obedience, ( ... )
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OH! Also, I don't get why the show uses the "righteous man" title as if it's a good thing. The first time I heard my sister spoil me a bit for Dean's role, a trigger went off in my head at that label. Righteousness isn't exactly a completely positive quality is it? I mean a person who is constantly absolutely certain they are morally right or acting for the morally "right" cause easily falls into the mistake of equivocating things in moral absolutes, or worse, equivocating morality in terms of only their own actions instead of the world and people around them. >>" I am... possibly making no sense at this point. (^_^)"
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I think that's a really good point, and I wouldn't be surprised if the word weren't chosen intentionally because of its connotations of overzealousness. But then, I think it's mostly contextualized in the more conventional sense - the enemy of the demons, the one chosen by Heaven to stop the apocalypse, all those things have so much mythological weight that a little bit of saying "oh it's complicated" doesn't really lead to a balanced perspective.
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(I keep telling myself John's only fictional, and I sneer at people who hate Sam, Dean or Cas, so I know I'm being hypocritical here. But it's the hand-waving of what John did that really makes me mad)
Now, they're both grown-ups now and I know you can't blame their childhood for ALL their screw-ups. But when people argue that point I do wonder WHEN they are supposed to have dealt with their issues and developed better coping skills? They've both been fire-fighting constantly since S1.
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I relate to Sam a lot too, sometimes uncomfortably so. Admittedly I've started to go a bit easier on him lately, I think; I'm having a tough time bringing myself to find fault when every page he ever dog-eared and burger he turned his nose up at are being trumpeted as ~incontrovertible proof that driving him to the brink of suicide and then roofieing him and pimping him out was not just understandable behavior but grounds to fuss over Poor Woobie Dean.
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