Hee! More think-y thoughts! I particularly found your opening thoughts comparing Bill Adama and John interesting, because I think I understand why in terms of the trope, why John isn't quite as aggravating to you as Bill. I think, partially, its that the trajectory in which the show takes each character and treats the dynamics of their relationship with the other characters very differently (also, John dies early on, whereas Bill stayed in all the way to the bitter end). The thing is young!John is rather innocent, and there's actually a moment, a "turning point" at which something happens that makes him into a paranoid, revenge-obsessed man, who could know longer see beyond his own haze of pain to realize what he's doing to his children. (And I think this is where a lot of my sympathy for Dean comes from. At least Sam got to rebel, but my heart hurts for Dean in the striga/witch (spelling?) story-line. Where, honestly? I thought John comes off as a "bit" of a jerk for deliberately sending him on that hunt to take care of the witch. I mean, I get that the show was aiming at "closure" for Dean, but honestly, wasn't he put through enough trauma as a kid. A kid made responsible for too many things to count from the age of four, and yeah, he went out while he was supposed to be baby-sitting his sleeping brother, but, he's a kid and John never even explained what he was supposed to be looking out for! Sorry, I took issue with that a bit because as Sam tried to point out to Dean. He was too young to really be blamed for what had almost happened.) Anyway, to continue with my former thought - And I think why you find young!John likable is that he is proof of that. We never see that with Bill. Instead, we are, I think, meant to take the fact that the older!Bill Adama is actually the wiser one, the one who cares more, is more mature, and is more thoughtful about family. Young!Bill Adama is supposed to be a viper jock and from some of Bill's own seeming tone when talking about his younger self - arrogant. The "Old Man" - his man pain is directly because of - well, mostly himself, and I think he fits this trope more strategically and directly (not that I support in any way the fridging of female characters to promote manpain, because I'd hope that it is obvious that I do not). (^_^)"
I think, also, that Bill's story is legitimated by the narrative and characters much more than John, because with John - we know right off the bat that Sam has pushed, and eventually Dean begins to push back against that pedestal that he had placed his father on. To a certain extent, I am not so sure that the John Dean always remembered was the post-fire John, but I can't help but wonder what he remembered of his "normal" father - the one he had until the fire. Sam never even got the chance to know him, and yeah, there were definitely better ways to have probably give Dean and Sam a chance at normal lives. Instead, he made Dean into a man-child - both older than his years and more immature and forever seeking the stability he imagines from normal adult/family life, and a Sam who spends years trying to figure himself out as a not!father replica. In terms of the narrative itself, I think it is definitely pushing for matching Sam with John, because, well - season 5 with Samuel to Dean - "you remind me of your mother". So yeah... ><" Trope-y, and I'm no longer sure what they are trying to do.
Bill meanwhile... he's admired for his characteristics, he has people forever enabling him. Lee pushes sometimes, but only gets shot down until he's just doing his best to take care of his father until - he's left alone. (>>") Kara. Kara, I can't even say anything, because to her, she's a father and a hero, and he tugs those strings throughout the show, and she never even gets the chance to push back (with perhaps only that one act of rebellion following his lie spurred by Laura). It's the same with Saul and the rest of his crew. The only people who, honestly, doesn't take his BS is Laura (have I mentioned recently how much I love that scene in "Hero" where she basically sits him down and gives him a verbal kick in the seat of his pants?) and, ironically, Ellen.
Pt 2, because my rambling exceeded comment limits. LOL - wow.obsessive_a101June 29 2012, 05:07:24 UTC
That said, my own feelings for John are rather vague and undefined. I don't like the trope, but I don't quite despise it either. (As you can probably tell from my fondness for woobie Bill with all his mistakes and all his guilt.) I don't think I'm as fond of John as some others, but I don't hate him. Though - I'd probably slap him upside the head a few times as well.
OH! Also, I don't get why the show uses the "righteous man" title as if it's a good thing. The first time I heard my sister spoil me a bit for Dean's role, a trigger went off in my head at that label. Righteousness isn't exactly a completely positive quality is it? I mean a person who is constantly absolutely certain they are morally right or acting for the morally "right" cause easily falls into the mistake of equivocating things in moral absolutes, or worse, equivocating morality in terms of only their own actions instead of the world and people around them. >>" I am... possibly making no sense at this point. (^_^)"
Re: Pt 2, because my rambling exceeded comment limits. LOL - wow.pocochinaJune 29 2012, 05:39:02 UTC
Also, I don't get why the show uses the "righteous man" title as if it's a good thing.
I think that's a really good point, and I wouldn't be surprised if the word weren't chosen intentionally because of its connotations of overzealousness. But then, I think it's mostly contextualized in the more conventional sense - the enemy of the demons, the one chosen by Heaven to stop the apocalypse, all those things have so much mythological weight that a little bit of saying "oh it's complicated" doesn't really lead to a balanced perspective.
Re: Pt 2, because my rambling exceeded comment limits. LOL - wow.obsessive_a101June 29 2012, 05:52:18 UTC
Ah - that would make sense. (^_^)" I mean, it sounds like a weighty title, it's just... eh. When it leaks into fandom (if it does) and when Dean, ironically, tells Sam that he is "self-righteous", I will not kid I *winced* and had to resist hitting my head somewhere hard. LOL
I think, partially, its that the trajectory in which the show takes each character and treats the dynamics of their relationship with the other characters very differently (also, John dies early on, whereas Bill stayed in all the way to the bitter end).
nod nod. I am really interested in this character type, obviously? I just want it to be done thoughtfully, which I didn't think would happen with Bill but ultimately stopped having hope for around Day in the Life. ("Oh, Mom smacked you around? BUT HOW IS THIS ABOUT MEEEEEEE?!?" like for real Bill, WHOCURR.)
The thing is young!John is rather innocent, and there's actually a moment, a "turning point" at which something happens that makes him into a paranoid, revenge-obsessed man, who could know longer see beyond his own haze of pain to realize what he's doing to his children.
Yes! I like a lot that we get to see John become what he became, rather than taking for granted that he should and would.
I took issue with that a bit because as Sam tried to point out to Dean. He was too young to really be blamed for what had almost happened.
Yeah...without spoiling, Subsequent Events have killed my Dean-sympathy dead (and then torched its corpse and crapped on the ashes) but I feel for him like anything about his relationship to John.
(Well, you have seen the Heaven-episode. SAM: I shall take this unique opportunity to see things from your perspective and acknowledge there were parts of it I did not understand! DEAN: I shall take this unique opportunity to see things from your perspective and make it all about ME! ME, ME, ME! laaaaaaaawlin' forever.)
Laura and ELLEN getting back up in the face of the MAN PAIN makes me love them both so much. But yeah, you're right, John's complication gets deeper as time goes on while Bill just gets more and more validated and glorified.
>>" I still have to finish my Little!Lee fic regarding that... Maybe I should have joined in the Lee-ficathon. It might have spurred me into finishing it.
LOL - regarding Dean, I think I started getting annoyed with him more and more somewhere in season 3, and he hasn't regained himself on my sympathies since then while Sam has had to grow on me, but he definitely did beginning some time around mid-season 3 into season 4, and yeah, the "heaven" episode did make me wince a bit more as well, BUT I still hold out a bit of hope for Dean - well until whatever happens happens. (My sister and I only just began season 6. I've been slowing the viewing schedule down mostly because I really couldn't take the show in large doses any more, and I missed my books. (^_^)")
I think my favorites remain among the angels. I just find them fascinating - watching these inhuman creatures becoming more and more humanized as the narrative progresses (or perhaps, more accurately, the realization of humanity). (One of them should a write a book: "How to make Heaven a messier place in 10 easy steps?" [product success not guaranteed].) I just recently met Balthazar, and I am so ready to sit in and enjoy this ride - even if it breaks me. (Yes, my sister has spoiled me.)
I think I started getting annoyed with him more and more somewhere in season 3, and he hasn't regained himself on my sympathies since then while Sam has had to grow on me, but he definitely did beginning some time around mid-season 3 into season 4,
That was about my trajectory with both of them as well. Well, is, I'm progressively more annoyed with Dean and invested in Sam.
Agreed so hard on the angels, as is probably obvious already. They're just fascinating, so cruel and so sympathetic all at once. (OH GABRIEL. <3)
(One of them should a write a book: "How to make Heaven a messier place in 10 easy steps?" [product success not guaranteed].)
GABRIEL!!! *sobs incoherently* That ENTIRE scene between him and Lucifer, and how he just tried so hard not to get involved because he loves his brothers and his family, but then, he also fell in love with humanity - and GAH! I can't. I cannot. From trickster/Loki to arcangel to friend, and basically giving the Winchesters the heads up on what they needed to do to solve their entire 'apocalypse' situation. *sigh* Oh Gabby.
I think, also, that Bill's story is legitimated by the narrative and characters much more than John, because with John - we know right off the bat that Sam has pushed, and eventually Dean begins to push back against that pedestal that he had placed his father on. To a certain extent, I am not so sure that the John Dean always remembered was the post-fire John, but I can't help but wonder what he remembered of his "normal" father - the one he had until the fire. Sam never even got the chance to know him, and yeah, there were definitely better ways to have probably give Dean and Sam a chance at normal lives. Instead, he made Dean into a man-child - both older than his years and more immature and forever seeking the stability he imagines from normal adult/family life, and a Sam who spends years trying to figure himself out as a not!father replica. In terms of the narrative itself, I think it is definitely pushing for matching Sam with John, because, well - season 5 with Samuel to Dean - "you remind me of your mother". So yeah... ><" Trope-y, and I'm no longer sure what they are trying to do.
Bill meanwhile... he's admired for his characteristics, he has people forever enabling him. Lee pushes sometimes, but only gets shot down until he's just doing his best to take care of his father until - he's left alone. (>>") Kara. Kara, I can't even say anything, because to her, she's a father and a hero, and he tugs those strings throughout the show, and she never even gets the chance to push back (with perhaps only that one act of rebellion following his lie spurred by Laura). It's the same with Saul and the rest of his crew. The only people who, honestly, doesn't take his BS is Laura (have I mentioned recently how much I love that scene in "Hero" where she basically sits him down and gives him a verbal kick in the seat of his pants?) and, ironically, Ellen.
And... I need to stop rambling.
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OH! Also, I don't get why the show uses the "righteous man" title as if it's a good thing. The first time I heard my sister spoil me a bit for Dean's role, a trigger went off in my head at that label. Righteousness isn't exactly a completely positive quality is it? I mean a person who is constantly absolutely certain they are morally right or acting for the morally "right" cause easily falls into the mistake of equivocating things in moral absolutes, or worse, equivocating morality in terms of only their own actions instead of the world and people around them. >>" I am... possibly making no sense at this point. (^_^)"
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I think that's a really good point, and I wouldn't be surprised if the word weren't chosen intentionally because of its connotations of overzealousness. But then, I think it's mostly contextualized in the more conventional sense - the enemy of the demons, the one chosen by Heaven to stop the apocalypse, all those things have so much mythological weight that a little bit of saying "oh it's complicated" doesn't really lead to a balanced perspective.
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nod nod. I am really interested in this character type, obviously? I just want it to be done thoughtfully, which I didn't think would happen with Bill but ultimately stopped having hope for around Day in the Life. ("Oh, Mom smacked you around? BUT HOW IS THIS ABOUT MEEEEEEE?!?" like for real Bill, WHOCURR.)
The thing is young!John is rather innocent, and there's actually a moment, a "turning point" at which something happens that makes him into a paranoid, revenge-obsessed man, who could know longer see beyond his own haze of pain to realize what he's doing to his children.
Yes! I like a lot that we get to see John become what he became, rather than taking for granted that he should and would.
I took issue with that a bit because as Sam tried to point out to Dean. He was too young to really be blamed for what had almost happened.
Yeah...without spoiling, Subsequent Events have killed my Dean-sympathy dead (and then torched its corpse and crapped on the ashes) but I feel for him like anything about his relationship to John.
(Well, you have seen the Heaven-episode. SAM: I shall take this unique opportunity to see things from your perspective and acknowledge there were parts of it I did not understand! DEAN: I shall take this unique opportunity to see things from your perspective and make it all about ME! ME, ME, ME! laaaaaaaawlin' forever.)
Laura and ELLEN getting back up in the face of the MAN PAIN makes me love them both so much. But yeah, you're right, John's complication gets deeper as time goes on while Bill just gets more and more validated and glorified.
I need to stop rambling.
False.
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LOL - regarding Dean, I think I started getting annoyed with him more and more somewhere in season 3, and he hasn't regained himself on my sympathies since then while Sam has had to grow on me, but he definitely did beginning some time around mid-season 3 into season 4, and yeah, the "heaven" episode did make me wince a bit more as well, BUT I still hold out a bit of hope for Dean - well until whatever happens happens. (My sister and I only just began season 6. I've been slowing the viewing schedule down mostly because I really couldn't take the show in large doses any more, and I missed my books. (^_^)")
I think my favorites remain among the angels. I just find them fascinating - watching these inhuman creatures becoming more and more humanized as the narrative progresses (or perhaps, more accurately, the realization of humanity). (One of them should a write a book: "How to make Heaven a messier place in 10 easy steps?" [product success not guaranteed].) I just recently met Balthazar, and I am so ready to sit in and enjoy this ride - even if it breaks me. (Yes, my sister has spoiled me.)
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That was about my trajectory with both of them as well. Well, is, I'm progressively more annoyed with Dean and invested in Sam.
Agreed so hard on the angels, as is probably obvious already. They're just fascinating, so cruel and so sympathetic all at once. (OH GABRIEL. <3)
(One of them should a write a book: "How to make Heaven a messier place in 10 easy steps?" [product success not guaranteed].)
bwahahaha!
BALTHAZAR IS SO GREAT.
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