In which I declare myself a fandom heretic

[moonspinner]

After the euphoria of Atla's Book 3 (Fire) wore off, I realized that I had some issues with it. And some is an understatement. It took me a while (another understatement) to put them together with any degree of coherency. I don't think I succeeded. But here they are, at last, to all intents and cathartic purposes.

Comments

[yukinoomoni]

First of all, I find your censoring of my comments over on avatar_fans absolutely childish. As such, despite the fact that you have written this post eloquently, it still doesn't dispute the fact that it's all been said over ten times before.

Because you have acted childishly, I have little reason to take anything you say seriously, so even if you have presented these arguments in a way that would have persuaded me, your behaviour has automatically dissuaded me.

If you don't like what someone says, and you don't feel that they have a right to say them, especially if they contradict your own opinions, don't post them on public forums.

Otherwise, here's a community just for you: thecakeisalie.

[moonspinner]

Thanks for calling my post eloquent! I didn't think it would even come close what with my, "oh screw this! I'm tired to working out how best to say this logically in my head and I'm just typing out what I feel" attitude when I wrote it. I'm not sure I wrote it out to persuade anyone. It was more of cathartis. I needed to get it out because yes, it's been over two years, but it's bugged me all this well and sort of soured my enjoyment of AtLA - which I love so hard - because post-series finale, it seemed you could either be in-love-with-the-finale-and-Bryke-can-do-no-wrong or a disgruntled Zutara fan who was going to find fault with everything. There's been no middle ground.

I deleted your comment on the community because, like I said in the PM, I didn't want the first comment to be about how this post was just going to start a wankfest again. I didn't delete it because you contradicted anything here. You weren't even replying to anything in the post - just the idea of the post at all. (Which is kind of ironic).

[yukinoomoni]

Yes, I did get your PM. And your deleted comment on my journal. And while I get the irony, I still stand on the fact that what tears this fandom apart the most is the constant nit-picking that people seem to have about nuances and structure about season three. (I have the above link wrong - it's thecakewasalie.)

Season three's end was planned from the start. The details weren't, but the income was. I could go on and on (and on and on) about the points in this post and how I can refute them, but again, why bother? I'm just wasting my breath.

[moonspinner]

Thanks for the link! I went to the first one and I was like, uh? It looks like to be interesting reading, if anything.

This is just my (admittedly not so much) humble opinion but I think what tears any society (be it fandom or something more tangible) apart is not people nit-picking or even people disagreeing, but people not letting differences be. For example, you telling me not to critic or to be satisfied with things that (to me) are not satisfactory is a bigger deal than telling me that you don't agree with my criticsm. I don't expect you - or anyone else for that matter - to see a story exactly the same way that I do anymore than I expect us to have exactly the same taste in, for example, food or fashion. It would be awesome at first, true, but after a while it will become boring. Sometimes, the fights spirited debates discussions are what makes fandom lively more so than the "we all see things exactly the same way!" posts. What tears people apart is when the discussions can't be kept civil - or when you automatically assume

[misora]

As a non-Kataang shipper and as someone not on your flist, I just want to say: a lot of people agree with your dissatisfied feelings from the finale. Unfortunately in this fandom, it's commonplace to get a lot of flak for saying *anything* that could be remotely construed as "attacking the creators", when in fact you're just expressing your inability to suspend disbelief over certain things that happened.

A lot of us at thecakewasalie are Z/K shippers, and while that might paint us with a particular brush in some peoples' eyes, many of us (myself included) would have been perfectly happy with an open ending as opposed to the romantic "sealing the deal" on the canon ships. After all, as you mentioned, the point of the whole show was friendship, and how powerful it can be...and it would have been great to just see more shots of the group acting happy and victorious together instead of a forced romantic angle.

Bryke excels at worldbuilding and portraying camaraderie. Romance and linear storytelling, not so much.

:)

[moonspinner]

As a Kataang shipper, I should be happy with the way the story ended, ship-wise but I'd like to think I expect more from a story than just seeing my preferred people sucking face at the end. A little coherency... a little consistency... I'm not asking for much. Heck, just keeping the S2-ending status quo between K/A instead of injecting a lot of artificial, pseudo-realistic, un-resolved no-matter-how-you-squint-to-see-it-as-'growth' angst between them. As for Zuko/Mai, I've said it before and I'll say it again but tying an erstwhile strong woman's redemption to her boyfriend - after taking pains to not tie it to her family - is not pro-feminist.

Unfortunately in this fandom, it's commonplace to get a lot of flak for saying *anything* that could be remotely construed as "attacking the creators", when in fact you're just expressing your inability to suspend disbelief over certain things that happened.Yes, I think so. It's a creepy parallel with the way the anti-whitewashing crowd was shouted down when the movie casting was first

[inuyatta]

Despite the minor wank that seems to have cropped up either here or elsewhere, I agree with this post fully. And no, I have not ever shipped Zutara either

[moonspinner]

Where do I begin about the seething pool of conflicted emotions that I have with the Southern Raiders? LOL. More uncensored ranting in a moment.

[moonspinner]

Despite the minor wank that seems to have cropped up either here or
elsewhere, I agree with this post fully. And no, I have not ever
shipped Zutara either. ;)

I think it is perfectly possible to have problems with the shipping of
a story and have valid criticism for other aspects of the story. All
the same, I am pleased as punch that other non-Zutara shippers see
problems wtih the finale. Avatar is a brilliant story. Perhaps if it
was less brilliant, the gaping holes of consistent inconsistency and
sub-standard story-telling in Season 3 won’t be so... gaping. Because
there is a lot of Season 3 that is fantastic - Zuko calling the old
man out; the Boiling Rock for all being written on top of a foundation
of shaky characterization is still an excellent episode - but because
so much of what was fantastic was built on or hedged between OOC/WTF
episodes, it just makes it worse.
LOL @ the minor wank. I almost wish there was wank. I feel like
if I’m letting some commenters down.

some of the writing team left before the series was done.

[inuyatta]

I think it is perfectly possible to have problems with the shipping of
a story and have valid criticism for other aspects of the story. All
the same, I am pleased as punch that other non-Zutara shippers see
problems wtih the finale. Avatar is a brilliant story. Perhaps if it
was less brilliant, the gaping holes of consistent inconsistency and
sub-standard story-telling in Season 3 won’t be so... gaping. Because
there is a lot of Season 3 that is fantastic - Zuko calling the old
man out; the Boiling Rock for all being written on top of a foundation
of shaky characterization is still an excellent episode - but because
so much of what was fantastic was built on or hedged between OOC/WTF
episodes, it just makes it worse.
LOL @ the minor wank. I almost wish there was wank. I feel like
if I’m letting some commenters down.YESSSSS to ALL of this! I wanted to do a post like this back when the finale first came out, but there were so many cries of 'quit harshing my squee!' and 'lol, if you didn't love it, you must be a butthurt zootard' that

[paperclipchains]

All of this has been said a million times over, and deleting the first post to call you out in it isn't classy. Don't delete posts - especially community ones.

That said...

Mai is just not that attached to her family. I think you're right that the writers took her in a slightly different direction than initially anticipated but I think they did the same thing with Ty Lee and honestly, it isn't night-and-day, and it makes perfect sense. It's a little amoral for most people's tastes but I'd hardly clal it anti-feminist.

[moonspinner]

*shrugs* They had their say here, a civil discussion ensued and a wank-fest was avoided.

it isn't night-and-day, and it makes perfect sense. Not to everyone, obvs. Actually I found Ty Lee's arc - from being forced into mookdom by Azula to finding the courage to take her down when her friend was in danger - the most consistent of the three Ozai's Angels.

Still you don't think the cliche of the evil woman redeemed by her love of a good man has er... Unfortunate Implications?

[alexb49]

Just stopping in to commend you on being very politic in your discussion here. It is indeed ironic that those who comment negatively on deleting yukinoomoni's comment seem to not want this discussion to take place because it's 'been said before'. If it's been said before, then obviously there are differing opinions. Telling people to not have the conversation will absolutely in no way quash the enmity that seems to come so easily in this fandom. While I disagree with deleting comments, I can understand why a comment to the effect of 'this discussion should not be happening' would be something you wouldn't want derailing a thread. Since you seem to handle yourself capably here, I would suggest simply continuing that reasonable attitude to counter those opinions rather than deleting them

[moonspinner]

I'm not a fan of censoring either. But the comment (which has been reposted verbatim over here, by the way) would have derailed the whole discussion before it had even started. Saying 'this discussion should not be happening' isn't even disagreeing with anything in my post, just - indirectly - saying the post should be censored shouldn't have been brought up in the first place. Yeah, the irony is... ironic. :P

I have to admit that it took me a long time to first: admit to myself that there were problems in S3, and then: admit to other like-minded (shipper-wise) fans that there were problems in S3 because of shipping. At first, I was just glad that my ship had won! *bows head* Then, when I tried to speak up, I noticed how quickly the show defenders were eager to jump down any critic's throat and label them a "delusional" Zutara or worse. You know you've entered scary territory when you get defriended for daring to point at the Ember Island Players and suggest that Bryke might have allowed some of their fandom sentiment seep into the

[alexb49]

I'll just repeat that you seem more than capable at handling a derailing comment so feel free to do that rather than delete the comment. It's totally appropriate to remind someone to keep it on topic rather than make the debate about the debate and make this publicly viewable. If you want, issuing a warning and deleting the comment if the person persists in going off topic, but otherwise I would recommend keeping it public

[moonspinner]

No more deleted comments, pinky swear. Of course, it’s easy for me to swear now that the whole discussion has ended up being so tame. I wonder where the idea that it’d devolve into a raging wankfest came from? :P

See, the only way people will have reasonable discourse about how they think relationships were handled in this story is by not thinking in terms of 'my ship won!'.
WORD. Because having Aang and Katara suck face in the end doesn’t negate or erase all the other ways their story could have been better or all the other flaws in S3 that had nothing to do with shipping or the fact that while I am not a Zutara fan, I do not like fan baiting nor do I like creators engaging with fandom just so as to tell a section that they are ‘doing it wrong’.

Zuko the King of Angst angsts about dumping Uncle Iroh, and about his father once being a baby, and about his sister, and his mother, and definitely about Katara not liking him… but he doesn’t spare a thought for the girl who nearly died trying to get him to safety. How do Mai fans think