In which I declare myself a fandom heretic

[moonspinner]

After the euphoria of Atla's Book 3 (Fire) wore off, I realized that I had some issues with it. And some is an understatement. It took me a while (another understatement) to put them together with any degree of coherency. I don't think I succeeded. But here they are, at last, to all intents and cathartic purposes.

Comments

[alexb49]

Just stopping in to commend you on being very politic in your discussion here. It is indeed ironic that those who comment negatively on deleting yukinoomoni's comment seem to not want this discussion to take place because it's 'been said before'. If it's been said before, then obviously there are differing opinions. Telling people to not have the conversation will absolutely in no way quash the enmity that seems to come so easily in this fandom. While I disagree with deleting comments, I can understand why a comment to the effect of 'this discussion should not be happening' would be something you wouldn't want derailing a thread. Since you seem to handle yourself capably here, I would suggest simply continuing that reasonable attitude to counter those opinions rather than deleting them.

I'll say that I've written Zutara but that this should bring my opinions on the final into suspicion is really disturbing to me. I have no vested interest in what canon does because that's what fanon is for. This may be because I'm a slasher at heart and it will be a long time before there's enough ghey in American media for my liking.

Now after all that, to the meat of your post. I found that almost all of the creators' handling of things romantic to be poor at best. I find the way that Zuko and Mai interact in the Beach as two teenagers going through the motion of how they think a boyfriend and girlfriend should act. That Mai becomes such an afterthought for Zuko doesn't help either. I know you're a fan of Aang and Katara but I have to say that I felt that Aang's affection was very much one sided until it popped up in the finale. A lot of the counter arguments say that there's a subtlety that those that have complaints with the third season are missing. But as you say, there's far too many episodes that simply rehash the same themes, surely the creators could have spent a few more seconds along the way adding some texture to those subtleties? If I need to frame by frame skip through a scene to find a statue of a lion turtle, surely you could have a passing mention of a completely different form of bending that has been lost to the ages at some point in the show's three year run? If there's something so subtle that there's a chunk of your audience missing it, then it's poor storytelling no matter how you slice it.

[moonspinner]

I'm not a fan of censoring either. But the comment (which has been reposted verbatim over here, by the way) would have derailed the whole discussion before it had even started. Saying 'this discussion should not be happening' isn't even disagreeing with anything in my post, just - indirectly - saying the post should be censored shouldn't have been brought up in the first place. Yeah, the irony is... ironic. :P

I have to admit that it took me a long time to first: admit to myself that there were problems in S3, and then: admit to other like-minded (shipper-wise) fans that there were problems in S3 because of shipping. At first, I was just glad that my ship had won! *bows head* Then, when I tried to speak up, I noticed how quickly the show defenders were eager to jump down any critic's throat and label them a "delusional" Zutara or worse. You know you've entered scary territory when you get defriended for daring to point at the Ember Island Players and suggest that Bryke might have allowed some of their fandom sentiment seep into the storytelling.

And if I've in anyway given the impression that a Zutara fan's problems with S3 are any way less valid than mine, then I apologize. I really don't mean that at all. As a Kataang fan, I have a lot of problems with S3, even more than I would have had if I didn't ship anything. The bottom line is that there are problems with the way the romantic relationships were handled. Sure, writers can't please everybody. But when both the ship winners and losers are complaining, then there is a problem.

That Mai becomes such an afterthought for Zuko doesn't help either.

*face-palm* Can someone still explain to me why a Mai (not Maiko) fan should be happy that Mai: does a High Heel Face Turn for Zuko, risks her life to help him escape the Boiling Rock (because he certainly wasn't there when Ty Lee stopped Azula from electrocuting her), and languished in prison, and gets for her pains, Zuko turning around on his Coronation Day and effectively going, "Wow, Mai! So glad you're still alive!" ???

If I need to frame by frame skip through a scene to find a statue of a lion turtle, surely you could have a passing mention of a completely different form of bending that has been lost to the ages at some point in the show's three year run?

Thank you! Thank you! Thank you!

[alexb49]

I'll just repeat that you seem more than capable at handling a derailing comment so feel free to do that rather than delete the comment. It's totally appropriate to remind someone to keep it on topic rather than make the debate about the debate and make this publicly viewable. If you want, issuing a warning and deleting the comment if the person persists in going off topic, but otherwise I would recommend keeping it public.

See, the only way people will have reasonable discourse about how they think relationships were handled in this story is by not thinking in terms of 'my ship won!'. That Aang winds up with Katara when the build up to this seems so poor to me is a pyrrhic victory at best. Same in my opinion with Mai and Zuko. Do I think that Katara and Zuko should have wound up together in the finale with the way the creators handled relationship? Hells no because there was a lot of other problems between them that hadn't been addressed prior to the finale. Them saying 'let's do it!' without any more relationship development would have made it seem just as out of left field as the other pairings. It just seemed much more plausible to me than the pairings that wound up coming together in the finale. Aang's story had never been about finding true love with anyone. It was about friendship, forgiveness and growing as a person to overcome obstacles. Everything else seemed unnecessarily tacked on.

It's not just the part about Zuko not going to release Mai from prison himself. That can grudgingly be explained by him being injured. That he simply leaves when he goes to join Aang is just weak. The creators seemed to enjoy making Zuko angst so much, why not spend 10 seconds on him being remorseful for leaving Mai behind rather than him acting "uh, oh busted!" in Boiling Rock? Either way, it just is more evidence in my mind that the creators should stay far, far away from writing romantic entanglements.

[moonspinner]

No more deleted comments, pinky swear. Of course, it’s easy for me to swear now that the whole discussion has ended up being so tame. I wonder where the idea that it’d devolve into a raging wankfest came from? :P

See, the only way people will have reasonable discourse about how they think relationships were handled in this story is by not thinking in terms of 'my ship won!'.
WORD. Because having Aang and Katara suck face in the end doesn’t negate or erase all the other ways their story could have been better or all the other flaws in S3 that had nothing to do with shipping or the fact that while I am not a Zutara fan, I do not like fan baiting nor do I like creators engaging with fandom just so as to tell a section that they are ‘doing it wrong’.

Zuko the King of Angst angsts about dumping Uncle Iroh, and about his father once being a baby, and about his sister, and his mother, and definitely about Katara not liking him… but he doesn’t spare a thought for the girl who nearly died trying to get him to safety. How do Mai fans think this is romantic?

[alexb49]

I forgot to say something else about canon. While creators do what they wish with their intellectual property for it to enter the realm of canon, there's plenty of examples where the creators go off the flippin' deep end. As for the essentials of the finale of S3 being planned from the beginning, I think you'd be hard pressed to find a writer who would willingly admit that they pulled it out of their ass. I believe they said in the artbook that Mai wasn't in the first draft of their story outline at all and she was only introduced much later. For shows like Lost or Twin Peaks, when the show was in production the writers were adamant that they had some grand plan when afterwards they admitted that this was not the case.

The other thing about Mai and the knife throwing at Sokka holding tom-tom is this: since the show is rooted in martial arts culture, those who do weapons work are taught a great respect for the damage they can cause with their weapon of choice. Yes, Mai would be skilled enough to hit a specific target as shown in the show but for her to do that, she would also understand that a target's behavior can be unpredictable. The show had the ability to be subtle in plenty of other areas. If they intended to show this as a moment of Azula testing Mai's loyalty, showing that conflict would have made the attack more meaningful, and Mai's rebellion later on more significant. That they do not allow her to show a second of hesitation at attacking someone who is carrying her brother makes her out to be a sociopath. There's a big difference between being on the outs with your family and not batting an eye at the possibility of their death.

[moonspinner]

If they intended to show this as a moment of Azula testing Mai's loyalty, showing that conflict would have made the attack more meaningful, and Mai's rebellion later on more significant. That they do not allow her to show a second of hesitation at attacking someone who is carrying her brother makes her out to be a sociopath.
When Azula ‘recruits’ Ty Lee there is this whole segue of moments - from her scowl when Ty Lee turns her down, to the circus show, to the sweat on Ty Lee’s brow when Azula ‘alters the performance’ to Ty Lee’s “Circus called. Azula called louder.” I’ve seen the argument that Mai was smarter and didn’t want to even give Azula the impression that she was resistant. But why then show that Mai was already bored on Omashu? That Mai already liked combat and already thought that Aang, etc. were her enemies and had already attacked them before Azula even showed? Why show Mai attack Sokka at all? Why doesn’t she hesitate when Azula has gone half-way across Omashu chasing down Aang and Bumi’s coffin? And beyond that, why go out of their way to show that Mai could pick and choose when to defy Azula unlike Ty Lee who always obeyed Azula? It was almost as if the writers were setting Ty Lee up to be the one who ultimately gets fed up with following orders and turns on Azula and Mai as the wild card mook whose eventual allegiance comes as a surprise.

There's a big difference between being on the outs with your family and not batting an eye at the possibility of their death.

This. And if the excuse for Mai’s decision with respect to Tom-Tom is really just that she wasn’t happy that her parents made her learn manners… then that would make sense - for a sociopath. But for someone who were supposed to be sympathetic to and ultimately root for... not so much.