A Feast for Crows by George R.R. Martin

[meganbmoore]

I have to say, while this volume was technically as good as the other books, I wasn’t as involved in it.  Partly because, as compared to Storm of Swords(but only that, not pretty much any other book in existence) not a lot happened, but more because, really, half the characters I care about weren’t in this one(or were only in one chapter and from

Comments

[alexandral]

and Sansa gone

I thought there were quite many good chapters of Sansa's . I like her becoming a strong person that is really quite resembling Cat now.

I liked "Crows" mostly for Jaime's change, for his chapters and the way he is remembering Brienne as some light.. And for Brienne's chapters. I like some of the Ironborn, Aeron and Asha and Euron is quite interestingly scary . And the horn. But I really could do without Samwell's cahpters though I like Samwell.

Did you notice that Sandor wasn't dead? And what do you think is going to happen to Brienne? Many of my friends think she is going to die. Oh noez! She is my favourite female charater there.

[meganbmoore]

I meant Sansa gone from King's Landing, not the book(though she did seems to have fewer chapters than usual, to me) Her chapters were good(though, oddly, I worry for her more now than I did before) it's just that all the characters I was interested in left King's Landing

[alexandral]

Her chapters were good(though, oddly, I worry for her more now than I did before)

I do too. Petyr is way too creepy creepy and old. And he is going to try more and more with her. But to tell the truth, I think Loras will survive though be disfigured and unable to stay in Kingsguard and at the end he and Sansa are going to marry and have babies and this will somehow complete the circle for her and be even be a replacement for Sandor. Who I agree is not going to be alive at the end because his main purpose is to kill as you say (and die doing it) zombie!Mountain.

And what do you think about the whole "Was there a kiss between Sansa and Sandor?" business?

BTW, I don't think Arya is blind forever and if she is she will have some supernatural vision or something. I think she will be very powerful very soon but I am not sure about her ever marrying..

bran(but not as a human)

Oh, interesting! What is your theory about this?

I don't think Brienne is dead yet...I think something will happen to save her.Sometimes I get dreams and I see

[meganbmoore]

Really, the only difference between sansa now and before is that she isn't being beaten physically now, but she's being mentally and emotionally abused and maniulated now. It, however, is something she can fight back against and defend herself against, which is helping to make her stronger(IMO, she's never been weak, she's just been hopelessly sheltered and shethought she was weak

[alexandral]

IMO, she's never been weak, she's just been hopelessly sheltered and shethought she was weak

I also agree that she wasn't weak. It is just that her whole world got changed so cruelly. But because she was strong she learned from the past, she learned to survive.

I kinda agree on the Sansa/Loras front, though she'll have to see him as a real person and not just a shiny prince charming first.

Loras also wasn't good for her IMHO before. He was good, but in "prince charming" way. But things can just change him for the better too..

I don't have a theory about Bran so much as a feeling...he seems to be starting to become something else. A new kind of god or spirit, maybe.

I think too. This is partly why I forgive Jaime for what he did, because in a way Bran rather gained than lost. (and partly because Jaime changed and partly because he "paid" for it with his sword hand).

Now that she's realized she has a brother in a relative position of power, she may start trying to find a way to save herself and get to himAgree. Also now they

[meganbmoore]

I also agree that she wasn't weak. It is just that her whole world got changed so cruelly. But because she was strong she learned from the past, she learned to survive.

she thought she was weak because she equated strength with physical strength...Cat was strong, but Sansa rather saw her parents as the brave hero and his beautiful lady...I think the only one to ever really see them for the people they were was Jon. But Sansa is learning that physical strength isn't the only strength she is, and she's learning that from her current abuser(and it is abuse, no matter how "gentle")

Loras also wasn't good for her IMHO before. He was good, but in "prince charming" way. But things can just change him for the better too..

Loras was too idealistic before...he was concerned for her, but he also had a lot of pride...I think the scene where she unintentionally insulted him was the perfect example of both their characters at the time.

Agree. Also now they are down from the mountain there is actually an opportunity for her to escape (and

[magicnoire]

Book 5 is theoretically supposed to take place around the same time as book 4. There were parts in book 4 that frustrated me because I knew that if all the characters had been in one book, my suspicions would have been confirmed. One being the reports Cersei fielded regarding Tyrion. But from what I understand, GRRM has never written strictly in chronological order, given the rotating narrators so even in previous books, some stuff was happening concurrently and even out of order. (I've never been that good at keeping detailed chronologies in my head so it never bothered me.)

...so how do you think a relationship between Loras and Sansa would fall? After all, he is gay. I suppose it doesn't really matter in terms of marriages and protector/protected partnerships. Unless, of course, they explain away Loras and Renly's affair as a one-time thing, which doesn't really sit well with me truthfully or doesn't much sound like GRRM as an author but who knows?

[meganbmoore]

yeah, it's hard sometimes keeping up with what's going on when.

Hmm...I apparently completely missed the Renly/Loras affair. Though, both Cersei and Dany are sexually interested in men, but both have had affairs with other women, so Loras/Renly COULD have been a one time thing, or a stress/out of the system thing.

[mariem_1]

From http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1316:

"And speaking of Renly and Loras...

George specifically stated "Yes, I did intend those characters to be gay." Not that we didn't already know that of course, but I don't believe it's ever been actually confirmed before."

See also this article - http://www.towerofthehand.com/articles/a/0028/. It makes it quite clear that neither Loras nor Renly were interested in women.

[meganbmoore]

well...a lot of things in that article is the writer choosing 1 interpretation over multiple possible interpretations, but GRRM says they're gay so they're gay.

Honestly, I've been reading comics and manga and watching anime and reading fan comments so long, and seen so many "omg, male a mentioned male b...they are SO gay" that until the writer tells me otherwise, I assume characters are straight or bi.

[magicnoire]

Oh, I've never seen the links the person above posted before. I'll visit those in a sec

[meganbmoore]

As far as the consummation goes, though, one person there at least testifies that he was definately physically ready to consummate the marriage at the time

[magicnoire]

Oh I know. It didn't really hit me that Renly and Loras were lovers until
Jaime said what he did to Loras and Loras made that comment about the sun setting and I was like, "OMG, I am an idiot."

And I do agree: the anime and manga fandoms are bad about that. I'm the complete opposite and blind to same-sex pairings there unless it's blatantly obvious or, you know, a BL title.

But this is GRRM we're talking about and he is a very deliberate writer (it's part of the reason why he takes so long, argh) so if there's a hint, it's usually not accidental. It'll either be true, a misconception, or a red herring, depending on who's narrating at the time, since he is very trixy when it comes to characterization.

[meganbmoore]

I keep approaching it from a earopean medieval and even asian perspective, where guys would make comments like that regarding guys they DIDN'T have any romantic feelings for. And Jaime...well, he was in a bad mood...I took it as his being pissed

[magicnoire]

In the very early days of love_deeper, there was some significant hate for Yuya but after one particular heated thread, the original mods came down hard so it stopped, which was nice. I do recall in those days feeling like I was in the minority for liking Kyo/Yuya.

Mind you,"significant hate" is relative. It was nothing compared to what you found in, say, the Gundam Wing fandom, which took it to new levels, but it seemed like a lot for a fandom that's otherwise laid back and chill.

Reading-wise, I do actually prefer more subtle writing overall so if there's a legitimate canon hint, I tend to pick up on it quickly. And I do mean real one, not "These two hawt guys were in the same panel on page 25 in volume 13 so obviously they are teh ghei lovers!" That's the one facet of fandom that drives me up the wall. It's one thing to pick up tiny clues; it's another thing to project your own wish-fulfillment on an unsuspecting story.

[meganbmoore]

yeah, i've seen some hate for yuya in older threads, but, like you said, nothing resembling other fandoms(ever read fushigi yugi?) Most of what I've seen is annoyance as opposed to hate, though. I think part of it is that Yuya has a brain and is actually useful at times, Okuni and Mahiro have skills, Kousuke must endure Yukimura's whims nd eccentricities, etc...really, the only DID handwringer is Sakuya, who's baely in the book. I've always been rather psycho about Kyo/Yuya(ever click my SDK tag?) I mean how do you NOT ship when he has a tendency to go ballistic and try to destroy anything and everything in the time zone any time she's hurt? And she'd do the same if she wer, you know, of the near-demonic persuasion...

Yeah, I prefer subtle writing, but I prefer not to assume writers mean one thing when another possible meaning is available. Unfortunately, as most m/m pairings I've encountered exist solely in the heads of fans, I tend to completely miss them.