A Feast for Crows by George R.R. Martin

[meganbmoore]

I have to say, while this volume was technically as good as the other books, I wasn’t as involved in it.  Partly because, as compared to Storm of Swords(but only that, not pretty much any other book in existence) not a lot happened, but more because, really, half the characters I care about weren’t in this one(or were only in one chapter and from

Comments

[meganbmoore]

I meant Sansa gone from King's Landing, not the book(though she did seems to have fewer chapters than usual, to me) Her chapters were good(though, oddly, I worry for her more now than I did before) it's just that all the characters I was interested in left King's Landing.

While I'm not as big a fan of Jaime as some, his chapters were definately the best part of the book, from a character perspective, for exactly the reasons you said. I don't dislike the Ironborn, I just don't find them as compelling as I do some of the others, though they have potential. ITA about Samwell. Sam is very endearing and likable, but he works best from someone else's perspective.

I most definately noticed Sandor wasn't dead. I don't see him making it out of the series alive, but I see him around until it's at least almost over(ditto for Jaime) Really, the only ones I see living are Jon, Dany, Samwell(iffy) Arya, Sansa, Rickon, bran(but not as a human) Gendry and Tyrion. But I don't completely trust my instincts there, as the told me Sandor would kill Gregor.

I don't think Brienne is dead yet...I think something will happen to save her.

Of course, unless Samwell goes to Dany, we won't see ANY of these people for a very long time...book 5 is about the rest of the cast and then who knows how long until book 6.

[alexandral]

Her chapters were good(though, oddly, I worry for her more now than I did before)

I do too. Petyr is way too creepy creepy and old. And he is going to try more and more with her. But to tell the truth, I think Loras will survive though be disfigured and unable to stay in Kingsguard and at the end he and Sansa are going to marry and have babies and this will somehow complete the circle for her and be even be a replacement for Sandor. Who I agree is not going to be alive at the end because his main purpose is to kill as you say (and die doing it) zombie!Mountain.

And what do you think about the whole "Was there a kiss between Sansa and Sandor?" business?

BTW, I don't think Arya is blind forever and if she is she will have some supernatural vision or something. I think she will be very powerful very soon but I am not sure about her ever marrying..

bran(but not as a human)

Oh, interesting! What is your theory about this?

I don't think Brienne is dead yet...I think something will happen to save her.

Sometimes I get dreams and I see Sandor saving her.. ;D

Of course, unless Samwell goes to Dany, we won't see ANY of these people for a very long time...book 5 is about the rest of the cast and then who knows how long until book 6.

This is what worrying me the most, but may be they will migrate somehow? I don't see Arya staying forever in Bravos and I don't see Sansa staying for long with creepy Petyr. In fact, Brienne and Sandor are going to team up and save her from there. :D

[meganbmoore]

Really, the only difference between sansa now and before is that she isn't being beaten physically now, but she's being mentally and emotionally abused and maniulated now. It, however, is something she can fight back against and defend herself against, which is helping to make her stronger(IMO, she's never been weak, she's just been hopelessly sheltered and shethought she was weak)

I kinda agree on the Sansa/Loras front, though she'll have to see him as a real person and not just a shiny prince charming first. Sandot/Sansa will never work out, but I think that any protector will be a replacement for him for her.

As both Sandor and Sansa say there was a kiss(and while Sandor may lie to Arya about it, there's no reason for Sansa to lie to herself about it) I'd saythere was a kiss.

IMO(after this book) Arya will probably never settle down, get married and make babies(it'll be up to Jon and Sansa to make more Starks(not together, of course), even though they won't carry the name) but I see her loving, but not getting to keep, Gendry, who's starting too feel like he's slated for a noble death.

I don't have a theory about Bran so much as a feeling...he seems to be starting to become something else. A new kind of god or spirit, maybe.

I see Sandor saving her, or Gendry. But definately Brienne and Sandor saving Sansa. Though, Sansa knows that her virtue is only temporarily safe with Petyr, and with Robin, and that she only lives in protection because she reminds Petyr of Cat, and her self-preservation instincts and skills are waking up. Now that she's realized she has a brother in a relative position of power, she may start trying to find a way to save herself and get to him(couldn't say that she'd be successful, but learning about Jon was a definate "ray of hope" thing for her.)

Isn't book 5 supposed to take place at the same time as book 4? I can see Samwell or Pate migrating, maybe a couple Ironborns, but not much else, except for maybe Sandor, depending on exactly what he's up to.

[alexandral]

IMO, she's never been weak, she's just been hopelessly sheltered and shethought she was weak

I also agree that she wasn't weak. It is just that her whole world got changed so cruelly. But because she was strong she learned from the past, she learned to survive.

I kinda agree on the Sansa/Loras front, though she'll have to see him as a real person and not just a shiny prince charming first.

Loras also wasn't good for her IMHO before. He was good, but in "prince charming" way. But things can just change him for the better too..

I don't have a theory about Bran so much as a feeling...he seems to be starting to become something else. A new kind of god or spirit, maybe.

I think too. This is partly why I forgive Jaime for what he did, because in a way Bran rather gained than lost. (and partly because Jaime changed and partly because he "paid" for it with his sword hand).

Now that she's realized she has a brother in a relative position of power, she may start trying to find a way to save herself and get to him

Agree. Also now they are down from the mountain there is actually an opportunity for her to escape (and mental opportunity too, she is much stronger now) where before it was utterly impossible. I think she will try to find her way to Jon and because of it we will hear more of her in the new book (which hopefully will be a lot about Jon).

Isn't book 5 supposed to take place at the same time as book 4? I can see Samwell or Pate migrating, maybe a couple Ironborns, but not much else, except for maybe Sandor, depending on exactly what he's up to.

The way Martin explains it sounds for me that in some chapters will not be in chronological order. But we will see..It will be so cruel if we don't get to know what happens to Brienne. And Jaime (is he going to ride back to save Cersei? It seems not but I have bad premonitions)

[meganbmoore]

I also agree that she wasn't weak. It is just that her whole world got changed so cruelly. But because she was strong she learned from the past, she learned to survive.

she thought she was weak because she equated strength with physical strength...Cat was strong, but Sansa rather saw her parents as the brave hero and his beautiful lady...I think the only one to ever really see them for the people they were was Jon. But Sansa is learning that physical strength isn't the only strength she is, and she's learning that from her current abuser(and it is abuse, no matter how "gentle")

Loras also wasn't good for her IMHO before. He was good, but in "prince charming" way. But things can just change him for the better too..

Loras was too idealistic before...he was concerned for her, but he also had a lot of pride...I think the scene where she unintentionally insulted him was the perfect example of both their characters at the time.

Agree. Also now they are down from the mountain there is actually an opportunity for her to escape (and mental opportunity too, she is much stronger now) where before it was utterly impossible. I think she will try to find her way to Jon and because of it we will hear more of her in the new book (which hopefully will be a lot about Jon).

Before Sansa didn't have the strength to do anything more than survive(which, really, was wquite the feat) and hope for rescue, but she's learning to think for herself, and to use what she knows. i'm not sure we'll actually see her in the next book, but I think there will at least be something like Sansa learning about him...I think something will happen that will make him realize that Sansa is there or probably there, and he'll start thinking of a way to get her(hmm...I think I have almost half the cast coming to her rescue at this point...Tyrion is probably still looking for her, too, though we don't know how much he blames her)

It will be so cruel if we don't get to know what happens to Brienne. And Jaime (is he going to ride back to save Cersei? It seems not but I have bad premonitions)

Maybe we'll learn about Brienne the way we did of Sandor? Lots of rumors that may or may not be true, but enough to make us sure that yes, she is alive?

The impression I got as far as Jaime going to rescue Cersei was that he was going to go, but was pissed about it because he knew she was using him...I think, though, that at this point, he'll be going to save his sister, not his lover. I think his travels with Brienne made him realize exactly what Cersei was and what her "love" for him really was, he just wasn't aware of it until he was able to unknowingly compare the two, and Tyrion threw Cersei's behavior in his face. Like I said in the original post, I'm not really picking up on any romantic feelings between them at this point, but travelling with Brienne is, by far, the best thing that's ever happened to him, and likely the best thing that ever will happen to him.

[magicnoire]

Book 5 is theoretically supposed to take place around the same time as book 4. There were parts in book 4 that frustrated me because I knew that if all the characters had been in one book, my suspicions would have been confirmed. One being the reports Cersei fielded regarding Tyrion. But from what I understand, GRRM has never written strictly in chronological order, given the rotating narrators so even in previous books, some stuff was happening concurrently and even out of order. (I've never been that good at keeping detailed chronologies in my head so it never bothered me.)

...so how do you think a relationship between Loras and Sansa would fall? After all, he is gay. I suppose it doesn't really matter in terms of marriages and protector/protected partnerships. Unless, of course, they explain away Loras and Renly's affair as a one-time thing, which doesn't really sit well with me truthfully or doesn't much sound like GRRM as an author but who knows?

[meganbmoore]

yeah, it's hard sometimes keeping up with what's going on when.

Hmm...I apparently completely missed the Renly/Loras affair. Though, both Cersei and Dany are sexually interested in men, but both have had affairs with other women, so Loras/Renly COULD have been a one time thing, or a stress/out of the system thing.

[mariem_1]

From http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1316:

"And speaking of Renly and Loras...

George specifically stated "Yes, I did intend those characters to be gay." Not that we didn't already know that of course, but I don't believe it's ever been actually confirmed before."

See also this article - http://www.towerofthehand.com/articles/a/0028/. It makes it quite clear that neither Loras nor Renly were interested in women.

[meganbmoore]

well...a lot of things in that article is the writer choosing 1 interpretation over multiple possible interpretations, but GRRM says they're gay so they're gay.

Honestly, I've been reading comics and manga and watching anime and reading fan comments so long, and seen so many "omg, male a mentioned male b...they are SO gay" that until the writer tells me otherwise, I assume characters are straight or bi.

[magicnoire]

Oh, I've never seen the links the person above posted before. I'll visit those in a sec.

Renly/Loras is a very subtle, read between the lines thing, which is why I've always been inclined to consider them a completely different thing than Cersei and Dany. There are hints scattered throughout but the only time I recall it being specifically referred to is when Jaime was shouting at Loras. Something to the effect of him shoving something somewhere where even Renly never found. So the other members of the Kingsguard likely. At the very least, it put a different light on why Renly never consummated his marriage to Margaery.

Cersei's liaison with her lady friend was just another illustration of power. I don't think it particularly mattered that the woman was female or not. Cersei's always used her body and sex as a weapon and a means to control people, so it didn't really surprise me that she resorted to it. She obviously gets off on power and those liaisons particularly showed how she despised being born female in a patriarchal society -- her actions were rather dominant, masculine and controlling, which was a little different than the role she usually assumes in sex.

Dany's was the only one I'd consider a result of frustrated sex but even then that was more a result of her having power and the slave girl seeking to please her mistress and falling back on engrained habits. Later, Dany doesn't much like it since she's aware of the fact that the girl's only doing it out of servitude.

[meganbmoore]

As far as the consummation goes, though, one person there at least testifies that he was definately physically ready to consummate the marriage at the time.

I've always taken sex in the series to be what it was in many past societies: You have what you prefer, but if something else is available you take it, especially if you're the one in the position of authority(as is the case with Cersei and Dany, though Dany seemed much less hesitant about it later, though still not happy)

But, like I said in a reply to the other...I've had comic, manga and anime fans insisting that each and everything is proof a canonically straight character is really gay that I tend to be VERY leery of anything that isn't the writer stating it, or making it extremely obvious. In the case of Renly and Loras, many "signs" can be read in several ways...for example, when reading it in the book, I took the Renly/Stannis conversation to be Stannis not really regarding Renly as a man and thinking him incapsable of getting it up, in a "me strong man, you sissy wuss" way, as opposed to anything else, because it fit what was going on.

[magicnoire]

Oh I know. It didn't really hit me that Renly and Loras were lovers until
Jaime said what he did to Loras and Loras made that comment about the sun setting and I was like, "OMG, I am an idiot."

And I do agree: the anime and manga fandoms are bad about that. I'm the complete opposite and blind to same-sex pairings there unless it's blatantly obvious or, you know, a BL title.

But this is GRRM we're talking about and he is a very deliberate writer (it's part of the reason why he takes so long, argh) so if there's a hint, it's usually not accidental. It'll either be true, a misconception, or a red herring, depending on who's narrating at the time, since he is very trixy when it comes to characterization.

[meganbmoore]

I keep approaching it from a earopean medieval and even asian perspective, where guys would make comments like that regarding guys they DIDN'T have any romantic feelings for. And Jaime...well, he was in a bad mood...I took it as his being pissed.

If it's not a yaoi title and the character isn't obviously gay(as in, Hana Kimi's Umeda) I assume they're straight...as they pretty much almost always ARE straight. I really try to avoid anime and manga fandoms for the most part for just that reason. The only one I've really let myself get into is the love_deeper comm for SDK. But then, at least in the archives I've looked at and discussions I've seen since joining, even with people who ship non-canon m/m, there's nothing resembling the rabid hatred for Yuya, Mahiro, etc. like there is with other female characters in books with multiple guys. Of course, given some of the things Akimine Kamijyo put Kyo and Yuya through, esp. towards the end, people would probably feel rather guilty about being mean to them in fanfic(even if they still occassionally make her into a shrewish harpy...which is stupid, as, while temperamental, she's about the sweetest girl ever born.)

[magicnoire]

In the very early days of love_deeper, there was some significant hate for Yuya but after one particular heated thread, the original mods came down hard so it stopped, which was nice. I do recall in those days feeling like I was in the minority for liking Kyo/Yuya.

Mind you,"significant hate" is relative. It was nothing compared to what you found in, say, the Gundam Wing fandom, which took it to new levels, but it seemed like a lot for a fandom that's otherwise laid back and chill.

Reading-wise, I do actually prefer more subtle writing overall so if there's a legitimate canon hint, I tend to pick up on it quickly. And I do mean real one, not "These two hawt guys were in the same panel on page 25 in volume 13 so obviously they are teh ghei lovers!" That's the one facet of fandom that drives me up the wall. It's one thing to pick up tiny clues; it's another thing to project your own wish-fulfillment on an unsuspecting story.

[meganbmoore]

yeah, i've seen some hate for yuya in older threads, but, like you said, nothing resembling other fandoms(ever read fushigi yugi?) Most of what I've seen is annoyance as opposed to hate, though. I think part of it is that Yuya has a brain and is actually useful at times, Okuni and Mahiro have skills, Kousuke must endure Yukimura's whims nd eccentricities, etc...really, the only DID handwringer is Sakuya, who's baely in the book. I've always been rather psycho about Kyo/Yuya(ever click my SDK tag?) I mean how do you NOT ship when he has a tendency to go ballistic and try to destroy anything and everything in the time zone any time she's hurt? And she'd do the same if she wer, you know, of the near-demonic persuasion...

Yeah, I prefer subtle writing, but I prefer not to assume writers mean one thing when another possible meaning is available. Unfortunately, as most m/m pairings I've encountered exist solely in the heads of fans, I tend to completely miss them.

[mariem_1]

As far as the consummation goes, though, one person there at least testifies that he was definately physically ready to consummate the marriage at the time.

Taena is hardly a reliable witness, though. Afterall, she also testified that Tyrion poisoned Joffrey's wine.