Keeping it in the family: a question of fandom incest

Dec 29, 2006 02:18

kita0610 points us to righteous indignation over incestuous faggot heathens. Expect the icon-makers to be recording the vast majority of that wank for posterity in various formats.

That particular wank does cramp my style a bit, though, because I've been gearing up to discuss incest!fics - or incest!rich fandoms - for a while now. (I decided that the Christmas break was JUST PERFECT for this discussion. Yes.) This will doubtless get me into hot water with many but, well, I'm not trying to be obnoxious, I just look for patterns. Everywhere. Help an obsessive-compulsive out? *bats lashes*

(Caveat: I'm specifically excluding cases where the incest is non-con.)


I have one main observation on the topic, and it is this: some fandoms seems much more inclined towards yielding specific types of incest!fic than others. (This covers fandoms where the incest is canon, as well as fandoms where it is not.)

I'd appreciate it if people would chip in with knowledge about fandoms I'm not familiar with, so that this list can be built up.

My preliminary thoughts lead me to the conclusion that m/m incest - both parental and sibling - is vastly more popular across fandoms (rather than within certain fandoms, if you see what I mean) which would indicate an appeal of the concept of m/m incest more than the characters selected in those items. In other words, the popularity of Regulus/Sirius might be down to the appeal of m/m incest as a concept, rather than any intrinsic appeal the individual characters might have (especially given that one of them only exists as a brief mention!).

This is curious, if true. An argument can be made that there are, in general more strong male than strong female characters in fandom as a whole, making m/m incest statistically more likely. It can be further argued, however, that the make-up of fandom in general needs to be taken into consideration. Fandom writers tend to be - to make an incredibly large generalisation - female. They are certainly more likely to support 'ships, including 'cest shipping.

It thus appears that female writers seem more comfortable writing m/m incest rather than m/f incest. Certainly, the m/f incest that does exist seems overwhelmingly skewed towards the sibling side, with a major focus on pseudocest - all of the excitement, with none of the taboo-breaking. What does this indicate about the place of incest within fandom as an entity?

1. Incest functions as a allegory within fandom, rather than depicting an actual relationship.
The power in an incestuous relationship tends to be overwhelmingly skewed towards the adult, which makes it difficult to portray father/daughter relationships as anything other than abuse. Similarly, the writer would have to overcome a deeply ingrained social taboo of allowing her (female) character to regard her son as anything other than a child, which many writers find difficult. As a personal example, I attempted to write Jean Grey/Cable once, and failed dismally, as I just couldn't wrap my head around it.

The power dynamic of brother/brother, however, is the epitome of equality. This can be seen most clearly in how twincest is regarded as 'natural' by certain parts of different fandoms: the two characters are visibly, as well as internally, equal. It is telling, however, that there is not an equal prevalence of sister/sister fic out there. Why do we not have Parvati and Padma? Why is there no Dawn & Buffy? [eta: see below for rebuttal.] I would argue that it is because the use of female characters in an incest fic would make the relationship uncomfortably close to what the writer herself understands. I'm of the school that believes it is difficult to write sex from a woman's perspective without revealing what you think and believe about sex, simply because we draw upon our own experiences as writers. Thus, writing f/f incest, despite the power balance of siblings, would be too close - uncomfortably so - for us as writers and as readers.

Writing m/m incest, then, adds an extra layer of security around the story: it turns it into an allegory of 'normal' relationships, by attempting to introduce characters who are signified as equals through the very fact of their brotherhood. Similarly, the power imbalance of a father/son relationship can be explored within the safety net of the allegory, without making the reader uncomfortable. I'm going to come right out and say that this is why it is nigh on impossible to write mother/daughter or father/daughter consensual incest fics: the writer would draw on their own parental relationships, and this would make it conceptually difficult for them to move the relationship within the fic in a way that makes narrative sense. Similarly, the reason for this difficulty is because the reader has an equal store of knowledge of dealing with her parents - and sometimes of being the parent - which makes it difficult to write such a convincing relationship.

2. The reason it does not depict an actual 'normal' incestuous relationship is because incestuous relationships are not normal.
It's as simple as that - but it does provide rather a large block for writers to attempt to write through. It is difficult to write a loving, consensual daughter/parent relationship because our understanding of being daughters and/or parents tells us that such a concept is a contradiction in terms. So - Jack cannot sleep with Sydney because he is Sydney's father, which therefore makes such a suggestion incomprehensible. More power to the writer who can overcome these deeply ingrained societal blocks to produce a fic that convinces me - they are better than any writer I have yet come across.

What of the brother/sister relationships, then? If the m/m incest is allegorical, what role does sibling incest play when the gender of one of the 'ship is the same as that of the reader? In a show like Veronica Mars, which is one of the few shows to have a fandom including f/m sibling incest (Lilly/Duncan), my understanding of the L/D dynamic is that the canon of the show portrays it as something not quite right. Frequently, the fic where D/L features utilises another character's POV, or a third person POV or, if that fails, Duncan's POV. I have not actually seen Lilly's POV used during any explicit D/L fic (please correct me if you know of some!). I would argue that this links in to how brother/sister relationships are portrayed in canon in certain shows e.g. ROME - as something not quite right, an aberration. Although the sex can be protrayed as consensual, the relationship is not portrayed as loving or long-lasting. Instead, we are guaranteed the downfall of 'the lustful one' - be that Lilly, Boone (in the case of pseudocest) or Iris & Justin - to restore the sanctity of the correct brother/sister relationship.

3. Pseudocest: all of the drama, none of the taboos
The idea behind pseudocest like Harry/Sirius and Boone/Shannon is to broach the same power issues that actual incest fic raises, without the preclusion of a happy ending. (All too often, however, when such things play out, the inevitable occurs.) It has the same level of disassociating of actual incest from the author's personal experience as, in this case, we are not moving the author's personal experience away from the topic of incest, but moving the topic of incest away from the author's actual experience. We are not-quite-discussing incest, if you see.

Conclusion:
So, what does this mean, then? Did the stars explode? Well... no. But this is my answer to those who argue that incest fic within fandom is an abomination and should be banned. In my opinion, incest fic serves a vital purpose, in allowing the discussion of power dynamics by the use of the short-hand of family relationships. Although one person might not understand what an author is trying to say when they argue that Fox Mulder loved Dana in a passionate, all consuming way (those things mean different things to different people, after all), if the author says that he loved her enough to give up Samantha for her, suddenly things become clear. We understand 'normal' sibling love, and can therefore use that relationship as a short-hand in our work to understand different power dynamics by making a familial relationship not quite normal.

In other words - lay off the 'cest!fic, it's all allegory, guv'nor.

***

///The types of incest, and examples of fandoms that feature them///

- [sibling] brother / brother (including the sub-set of twin!cest)
Canon:
Starcrossed (film - thanks to thelana)
Son Frere (film - thanks to thelana)

This is, in my unlearned and humble opinion, one of the most prolific forms in incest in fandom. Off the top of my head, we have:
- Supernatural - Wincest
- Harry Potter - twincest, and many permutations involving the Weasleys. Black!cest.
- LoTR - Boromir/Faramir
- Dexter - Dexter/Rudy (thanks to lafemmedarla)
- Hercules - Ares/Hercules, Iphicles/Hercules (thanks to ruric)
- X-Files - Krycek/Mulder (where Krychek is Mulder's brother - thanks to ruric)
- Smallville - Lex/Lucas (thanks to liviapenn)
- Heroes - Nathan/Peter Petrelli (thanks to kiki_miserychic)
- Troy - Hector/Paris (thanks to loves_bitch)
- Fullmetal Alchemist - Edward/Alphonse Elric, Edward/Envy, Russell/Fletcher Tringham (thanks to loves_bitch)
- X-Men - Cable/Stryfe (thanks to loves_bitch)
- BSG - Zak/Lee Adama (thanks to inlovewithnight)
- Numb3rs - Don/Charlie (thanks to pro_f_iler)
- Simon & Simon - various (thanks to pro_f_iler)
- Prison Break - Lincoln/Michael (thanks to musesfool & delfeus)
- 98 Degrees - Lachey brothers (thanks to shirasade)
- Narnia - Peter/Edward (thanks to shirasade)
- Boondock Saints - Connor/Murphy MacManus (thanks to shirasade)
- Popslash RPS - Nick/Aaron Carter (thanks to turloughishere)
- Naruto - Sasuke/Itachi (thanks to anenko)
- Ouran High School Host Club - Hikaru/Kaoru (thanks to anenko)
- Prince of Tennis - Fuji/Yuuta (thanks to delfeus)
- Lies & Kisses (thanks to delfeus)
- Oz - Ryan/Cyril (thanks to mikou)
- Gravitation - Yuki/Tatsuha (thanks to mikou)
- Digimon (thanks to kyuuketsukirui)
- Baby-Sitters Club - various (thanks to wisdomeagle)
- Arrested Development - Michael/GOB (thanks to thelana)

- [sibling] sister / sister
- Harry Potter - Parvati / Padma, Fleur/Gabrielle Delacour (thanks to kyrafic), Bellatrix/Narcissa (thanks to selenak)
- Buffy - Buffy/Dawn (thanks to kyrafic)
- RPF - Mary-Kate/Ashley Olsen (thanks to kyrafic)
- Alias - Sydney/Nadia (rare - thanks to soundingsea)
- Narnia - Susan/Lucy (thanks to shirasade)
- Ginger Snaps - Brigitte/Ginger (thanks to anenko)
- Charmed - various (thanks to anenko)
- Baby-Sitters Club - various (thanks to wisdomeagle)

- [sibling] brother / sister
This features in several fandom canons, yet isn't as popular as one might expect. The main exception would be Firefly, where River is acknowledged as not normal in her understanding of 'proper' relationships - witness her comment to Simon during a cut scene from Mrs Reynolds, asking when he'd marry her.

Canon:
- ROME
- Carnivale
- Silmarillion (thanks to turloughishere)
- Storm Constantine's Burying the Shadow (thanks to morgan32). Details here.
- Angel Sanctuary (thanks to delfeus). Details here
- Dynasty (thanks to mikou)
- Six Feet Under (thanks to likeadeuce)
- Revolutionary Girl Utena (thanks to veleda_k)
- Saiyuki (thanks to veleda_k)
- Vurt (thanks to thelana)
- Oldboy (thanks to thelana)
- Children of Dune (thanks to candygirl_2005)
- Gladiator (thanks to carmarthen)
- Nevar barr's novels (thanks to carmarthen)
- Edgar & Allen (thanks to destineyjen).
- Prison Break - T-Bag's parents (thanks to thelana)
- various CSI, House and Law & Order episodes featuring non-recurring characters - link to thelana's entry is here.

Fandom:
- Harry Potter - Ginny/Ron
- Veronica Mars - Lilly/Duncan
- Firefly - River/Simon (thanks to kita0610)
- RPF - Elijah/Hannah Wood (thanks to kyrafic)
- Supernatural - Dean/sister (genderswitch fic - thanks to femmenerd)
- Star Wars - Luke/Leia (thanks to evilshelly)
- Pretender - Miss Parker/Lyle, Miss Parker/Jarod (thanks to kiki_miserychic)
- Roswell - Isabelle/Max, Isabelle/Michael (thanks to kiki_miserychic)
- Children of Dune - Leto ||/Ghanima (thanks to kiki_miserychic)
- The Hills have Eyes - Bobby/Brenda (thanks to loves_bitch)
- X-Men - Quicksilver/Scartlett Witch (thanks to loves_bitch)
- Avatar the Last Airbender - Zuko/Azula (thanks to loves_bitch), Sokka/Katara (thanks to anenko)
- Narnia - Susan/Peter and Lucy/Edward(thanks to kyrafic and shirasade)
- Sandman - (Death/Dream & various other Endless - thanks to musesfool)
- LotR - Eowyn/Eomer (thanks to musesfool)
- Weiß Kreuz - Ran/Aya (thanks to delfeus)
- Digimon - Taichi/Hikari (thanks to kyuuketsukirui)
- Revolutionary Girl Utena - various (thanks to veleda_k)
- ASOUE - Violet/Kalus (thanks to hiddenw)
- Drake & Josh - Drake/Megan (thanks to destineyjen)
- Hannah Montana - Jackson/Miley Stewart (thanks to destineyjen)
- Invader ZIM - DIB/GAZ (thanks to destineyjen)

- [parental] mother / son
Nearly impossible to find. One canonical example is Sayuki (thanks to daegaer). Details here.

Canon:
- Nip/Tuck (Ava/Adrian Moore) (thanks to darlas_mom)
- Buffy - Spike/Anne (attempted canonical incest - thanks to selenak)
- The Winter Prince (thanks to carmarthen)
- X-Men - Madelyne Pryor/Nate Grey (thanks to darlas_mom).
- Back to the Future - Marty/his mother (thanks to thelana)

- Harry Potter - Narcissa/Draco
- Fullmetal Alchemist - Trisha/Edward Elric (thanks to loves_bitch)
- Angel - Darla/Connor (thanks to darlas_mom)
- Smallville - Genevieve/Jason Teague(thanks to crimsonsenya

- [parental] mother / daughter
I have yet to find any.
- Buffy - Buffy/undead!Joyce, at the UCSL archive (thanks to valarltd)
- Xena - Gabrielle/Hope (thanks to anenko)

- [parental] father / son
The other major type.
- Veronica Mars - Echolls!cest
- Harry Potter - Weasley!cest, Malfoy!cest, Potter!cest (all very large in fandom)
- Supernatural - Win!cest (very large)
- Angel - Angel/Connor
- X-Files - Krychek/CSM (where the CSM is Krychek's father - thanks to ruric)
- Smallville - the Luthors (thanks to liviapenn)
- Hercules - Zeus/Ares (thanks to ruric)
- Fullmetal Alchemist - Edward/Hoehnheim Elric (thanks to loves_bitch)
- X-Men - Cable/Scott Summers (thanks to loves_bitch)
- BSG - Bill/Lee Adama (thanks to inlovewithnight)
- Star Wars - Luke/Vader (thanks to valarltd)
- Indiana Jones - Indy/Henry (slash is not big in this fandom - thanks to valarltd)
- Queer as Folk - Brian/Gus (thanks to mikou)
- Kung Fu: The Legend Continues - Peter/Pop (thanks to dorothy1901)
- Prison break - Lincoln/LJ (thanks to thelana)
- Back to the Future - Marty/his dad (thanks to thelana)

- [parental] father / daughter
Again, quite rare, despite the rich characterisation provided by many fandoms (e.g. Alias, Veronica Mars). Canon example offered by morgan32 in Storm Constantine's Burying the Shadow. Details here.
- Harry Potter - Arthur/Ginny
- Carnivale - Justin/Sofie (thanks to bluerosefairy)
- Avatar the Last Airbender - Azula/Ozai (thanks to loves_bitch)
- Angel - oh god, let's see if I have this right: Jasmine-possessing-Cordelia/Connor (thanks to selenak) - canonical incest(?)
- Star Wars - Leia/Vader (usually unknowing - thanks to valarltd)
- and just to prove me wrong *g* - Veronica Mars - Keith/Veronica (thanks to wisdomeagle)

Canon:
- Oldboy (thanks to thelana)

- [other] including aunt / uncle / nephews / nieces, grandparents, etc.
- X-Men - Cable/Jean (thanks to likeadeuce)
- Prison Break - Michael/LJ (uncle/nephew) (thanks to thelana)

- [pseudocest] e.g. step-siblings, father-figure/child
The 'fake' incest, where the frisson of excitement exists, but no actual incest is taking place.

Canon (& fandom):
LOST - Boone/Shannon

Fandom:
Highlander - Connor/Duncan (cousins? - thanks to ruric and dorothy1901)
Alias - Jack/Nadia, Sydney/Sloane, Irina/Sark. Sark/Sydney (thanks to carmarthen).
Harry Potter - Harry/Sirius
Angel - Spike/Angel (thanks to kita0610) - and all the rest of the Fanged Four permutations (thanks to selenak), Dawn/Connor (thanks to darlas_mom)
Dexter - Dexter/Deb (thanks to lafemmedarla)
Veronica Mars - Veronica/Duncan (thanks to soundingsea, I can't believe I forgot this one!)
Buffy - Buffy/Giles (thanks to lynne & spuffyduds)
Star Wars:The Phantom Menace - Qui-Gon/Obi-Wan (thanks to modillian)
Smallville - Clark/Lex (where Clark was raised by the Luthors - thanks to liviapenn)
Cruel Intentions and Dangerous Liaisons (step brother/step sister) (thanks to kiki_miserychic)
Clueless and The Battle of Jack & Rose (step brother/step sister) (thanks to kiki_miserychic)
Fullmetal Alchemist - Edward Elric/Roy Mustang (thanks to loves_bitch)
Profit - Profit/Bobbie (his step-mother - thanks to executrix)
DC fandom - liviapenn lists a whole host of pairings (with background for each) here and here. caia_comica has another example here.
Numb3rs - Charlie/Larry (Thanks to pro_f_iler)
Bleach - Byakuya/Rukia (thanks to anenko)
Artemis Fowl - Artemis/Butler (thanks to kelly_holden)
Baby-Sitters Club -various (thanks to wisdomeagle)
Passions - Chad/Whitney (thanks to thelana)
Heroes - Peter/Claire (brother/sister - maybe) (thanks to sunryse00)
Drake & Josh - Drake/Josh (thanks to hiddenw)
Life With Derek - Derek/Casey, Derek/Victoria (thanks to destineyjen)
Guiding Light - Jonathan Randall/Tammy Winslow, Henry Cooper Bradshaw/Eva Peralta, Joshua Lewis/Cassie Winslow, Alan/Beth Spaulding (thanks to destineyjen) CANON
As the World Turns - Holden Snyder/Lily Walsh-Snyder (thanks to destineyjen) CANON
Rugrats - Chuckie/Kimi (thanks to destineyjen)
Martin Mystery - Martin Mystery/Diana Lombard (thanks to destineyjen) CANON
Kana - Little Syster (game) (thanks to thelana)

Like I said, if anyone knows their particular fandom well & can contibute to this, please comment!!

meta, fandom, writing

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