I don't see how anything I said was hateful or ignorant. Unless you just "get that feeling." Or you're offended by me pointing out the obvious fact that illegal immigration is in fact a crime.
As for the problem, I thought it was apparent. An open border and illegal immigration has several problems, actual and perceived. I spared everyone going into these problems, because I'm sure you've heard them before - from supposedly stealing American jobs, being a drain on the social services system while not paying taxes, to the problem of security on our border in a post-9/11 world.
This post is not about the problems caused by illegal immigration, though. That's why I didn't really discuss the problem.
This is to point out that the people saying it'd be impossible to stop Mexican immigration are just making excuses for the fact we don't want to. I show that if the United States truly wanted to, it could. However, we don't want to because of the economic implications. As Doug points out below (or above), we want our oranges to be cheap and plentiful.
My last two suggestions show there are other means of stopping illegal Mexican immigration. Allowing them transportation and legalizing their jobs here would be a much more humane way to approach it. Where is the hate and ingorance there? Annexing Mexico might seem extreme, but it's not harsh or hateful. Maybe there is some chauvinism in saying we could clean it up, but Mexico's government is notoriously corrupt.
Oh, my statement about democrats not winning elections was a little hateful. I did mean it that way, but all in good fun.
Man, this is really just kind of making my skin crawl.
The problem is not apparent. Stealing American jobs is really sort of a non issue. The kind of people who will knowingly hire illegal immigrants aren't the type that are going to be paying high dollar wages anyway. As for being a drain on social services and not paying taxes, these people are saying that those are things they want to do. They want citizenship. Fuckin' give it to 'em.
"This post is not about the problems caused by illegal immigration, though. That's why I didn't really discuss the problem."
Yeah, it's like we all already assumed a while ago that it was a problem and now it's time to deal with it.
I derno, I just kind of see the whole thing as silly. You Americans are so fucking uptight.
As for legalizing their jobs, that's not a bad idea. A step in the right direction, at least. Better than night-vision special ops border patrols.
"Annexing Mexico might seem extreme, but it's not harsh or hateful. Maybe there is some chauvinism in saying we could clean it up..."
Maybe just a little...
And dude, one more thing:
"problem of security on our border in a post-9/11 world..."
I did, but you took at as meaning I don’t understand the problem or that there is no real problem. And I will continue to spare you the more hypothetical problems caused by terrorists. However, you can’t just say “spare me” when it comes to such problems caused by a lax border as the MS-13 gang and the violence it has brought to America. It's not some esoteric problem we don't have published information on.
And for your thought about just giving them citizenship, it defeats the purpose of why we allow these people to slip through the border in the first place and that is so we can have workers who do not have to be paid minimum wage. Citizenship would provide them minimum wage. Who’d want to continue employing them? And making people who make below minimum wage pay taxes? There’d hardly be a point. Further, that’d make their families in Mexico suffer. I don’t see how this is a better solution for the immigrants.
And don’t give me this Americans are so uptight bullshit. All countries are uptight about their borders or immigration. And uptight meaning we care about our economy, our tax payments, and our culture? I guess those are silly things to worry about as a country, especially when Congress could better spend its time investigating steroid use in baseball.
Why shouldn’t we be uptight about these things? If you think they don’t matter, then suggesting Mexico be annexed shouldn’t be a bid deal. Sovereignty and self-determination are silly anyway, right?
Let’s take the world’s poor, tired huddled masses and cram all 5.7 billion of them in here with us if they’d like that. Why limit who or who many enter? Bringing America to them just seems a little chauvinistic.
So our country has a greater landmass than China and less than a quarter of its population. Yet, I haven't seen China explode or fall off the map or melt down or collapse yet, so what's the trouble of letting some Mexicans in?
Like you started to say yourself:
"Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me. I lift my lamp beside the golden door."
Mexicans are still people, too. How about instead of making rules that say 'You are this and I am that," we just adknowledge that we're all people and go on living our lives?
Interesting comparison, even though it fully neglects standards of living factors that are part of the consideration against illegal immigration.
In the end, this argument is going nowhere because you continue to ask, "What's the harm of letting some Mexicans in?"
If by some, you mean our allotment of legal immigrants permitted to enter this country each year with the other applicants? None.
If you mean giving 11 million of them citizenship, lots. Mainly, they're here doing jobs we want to pay them shit for doing. They get citizenship: minimum wage. Increases costs for produce and other goods and services, which people don't want to pay. People not wanting to pay them means these produce companies will either hire more illegal immigrants and the fire the newly legalized citizens. How does that help anybody? These people are typically illiterate and unskilled - what future do they have here? Are we then going ot spend money sending them back to school? There's more of your income. Speaking of income, you're going to have to pay more property taxes to have bilingual education. And with all these unemployed people with no education or skills, you'll be paying more for social services. And where are they going to find affordable housing?
And the fact 50% of federal prisoners right now taken in for violent crimes are Hispanic illegal immigrants, mostly from the MS-13 gang. No harm in letting those guys in. I'm sure the families of their victims would agree.
Here are some problems you've never identified as problems nor have explained as being unproblematic. Disbelieving problems do not make them go away. I only further seeing you repeating "There is no problem."
One big reason we can't go on living our lives is because they are people. People who have needs, which requires resources, in a world of limited resources I'm also competing for. Or even more basic, people are inherently evil at heart. With 50% of violent federal offenders being Hispanic illegal immigrants crossing through the Mexican border, I'm not inclined to naively believe we can live and let live.
No no no, you don't understand, I want to have the last word, because in a debate, if there is not a clear winner the last person to comment stands at advantage.
But what is the prize?
What is the point?
Why live invisible lives in search of invisible standards?
I'd rather work with what I have in hand than what's happening hundreds or thousands of miles away, be it in thought, spirit, or physicality.
I do not enjoy the game of politics one bit. People become so self absorbed in a way that is unhelpful to everyone. They get lost in their seriousness, and don't see that their one desired, their only possible outcome is but one in a sea of possibility, and therefore they cannot embrace the beauty of that absolute possibility.
As for the problem, I thought it was apparent. An open border and illegal immigration has several problems, actual and perceived. I spared everyone going into these problems, because I'm sure you've heard them before - from supposedly stealing American jobs, being a drain on the social services system while not paying taxes, to the problem of security on our border in a post-9/11 world.
This post is not about the problems caused by illegal immigration, though. That's why I didn't really discuss the problem.
This is to point out that the people saying it'd be impossible to stop Mexican immigration are just making excuses for the fact we don't want to. I show that if the United States truly wanted to, it could. However, we don't want to because of the economic implications. As Doug points out below (or above), we want our oranges to be cheap and plentiful.
My last two suggestions show there are other means of stopping illegal Mexican immigration. Allowing them transportation and legalizing their jobs here would be a much more humane way to approach it. Where is the hate and ingorance there? Annexing Mexico might seem extreme, but it's not harsh or hateful. Maybe there is some chauvinism in saying we could clean it up, but Mexico's government is notoriously corrupt.
Oh, my statement about democrats not winning elections was a little hateful. I did mean it that way, but all in good fun.
Reply
The problem is not apparent. Stealing American jobs is really sort of a non issue. The kind of people who will knowingly hire illegal immigrants aren't the type that are going to be paying high dollar wages anyway. As for being a drain on social services and not paying taxes, these people are saying that those are things they want to do. They want citizenship. Fuckin' give it to 'em.
"This post is not about the problems caused by illegal immigration, though. That's why I didn't really discuss the problem."
Yeah, it's like we all already assumed a while ago that it was a problem and now it's time to deal with it.
I derno, I just kind of see the whole thing as silly. You Americans are so fucking uptight.
As for legalizing their jobs, that's not a bad idea. A step in the right direction, at least. Better than night-vision special ops border patrols.
"Annexing Mexico might seem extreme, but it's not harsh or hateful. Maybe there is some chauvinism in saying we could clean it up..."
Maybe just a little...
And dude, one more thing:
"problem of security on our border in a post-9/11 world..."
Please dude, spare me.
Reply
I did, but you took at as meaning I don’t understand the problem or that there is no real problem. And I will continue to spare you the more hypothetical problems caused by terrorists. However, you can’t just say “spare me” when it comes to such problems caused by a lax border as the MS-13 gang and the violence it has brought to America. It's not some esoteric problem we don't have published information on.
And for your thought about just giving them citizenship, it defeats the purpose of why we allow these people to slip through the border in the first place and that is so we can have workers who do not have to be paid minimum wage. Citizenship would provide them minimum wage. Who’d want to continue employing them? And making people who make below minimum wage pay taxes? There’d hardly be a point. Further, that’d make their families in Mexico suffer. I don’t see how this is a better solution for the immigrants.
And don’t give me this Americans are so uptight bullshit. All countries are uptight about their borders or immigration. And uptight meaning we care about our economy, our tax payments, and our culture? I guess those are silly things to worry about as a country, especially when Congress could better spend its time investigating steroid use in baseball.
Why shouldn’t we be uptight about these things? If you think they don’t matter, then suggesting Mexico be annexed shouldn’t be a bid deal. Sovereignty and self-determination are silly anyway, right?
Let’s take the world’s poor, tired huddled masses and cram all 5.7 billion of them in here with us if they’d like that. Why limit who or who many enter? Bringing America to them just seems a little chauvinistic.
Reply
Area: total: 9,596,960 sq km
land: 9,326,410 sq km
water: 270,550 sq km
Population: 1,313,973,713 (July 2006 est.)
United states:
Area: total: 9,631,420 sq km
land: 9,161,923 sq km
water: 469,497 sq km
note: includes only the 50 states and District of Columbia
Population: 298,444,215 (July 2006 est.)
(source: http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/)
So our country has a greater landmass than China and less than a quarter of its population. Yet, I haven't seen China explode or fall off the map or melt down or collapse yet, so what's the trouble of letting some Mexicans in?
Like you started to say yourself:
"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me.
I lift my lamp beside the golden door."
Mexicans are still people, too. How about instead of making rules that say 'You are this and I am that," we just adknowledge that we're all people and go on living our lives?
Reply
In the end, this argument is going nowhere because you continue to ask, "What's the harm of letting some Mexicans in?"
If by some, you mean our allotment of legal immigrants permitted to enter this country each year with the other applicants? None.
If you mean giving 11 million of them citizenship, lots. Mainly, they're here doing jobs we want to pay them shit for doing. They get citizenship: minimum wage. Increases costs for produce and other goods and services, which people don't want to pay. People not wanting to pay them means these produce companies will either hire more illegal immigrants and the fire the newly legalized citizens. How does that help anybody? These people are typically illiterate and unskilled - what future do they have here? Are we then going ot spend money sending them back to school? There's more of your income. Speaking of income, you're going to have to pay more property taxes to have bilingual education. And with all these unemployed people with no education or skills, you'll be paying more for social services. And where are they going to find affordable housing?
And the fact 50% of federal prisoners right now taken in for violent crimes are Hispanic illegal immigrants, mostly from the MS-13 gang. No harm in letting those guys in. I'm sure the families of their victims would agree.
Here are some problems you've never identified as problems nor have explained as being unproblematic. Disbelieving problems do not make them go away. I only further seeing you repeating "There is no problem."
One big reason we can't go on living our lives is because they are people. People who have needs, which requires resources, in a world of limited resources I'm also competing for. Or even more basic, people are inherently evil at heart. With 50% of violent federal offenders being Hispanic illegal immigrants crossing through the Mexican border, I'm not inclined to naively believe we can live and let live.
Reply
But what is the prize?
What is the point?
Why live invisible lives in search of invisible standards?
I'd rather work with what I have in hand than what's happening hundreds or thousands of miles away, be it in thought, spirit, or physicality.
I do not enjoy the game of politics one bit. People become so self absorbed in a way that is unhelpful to everyone. They get lost in their seriousness, and don't see that their one desired, their only possible outcome is but one in a sea of possibility, and therefore they cannot embrace the beauty of that absolute possibility.
And therefore...
Reply
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