Contest of Losers

[heavens_steed]

I'm just wondering if there is anyone out there who is a bigger loser than I am and can usurp my self-designated title of dishonor. Granted, it's not a contest anyone would want to win but out of everyone I know, I think I'm the biggest loser. And no, I don't mean losing great amounts of weight from exercising and dieting because that would be a

Comments

[corelog]

-People who are the victims of forces primarily or entirely outside of their control

This, in my mind, describes you. Therefore, by your own definition, I cannot classify you as a loser.

[avon_deer]

Got in before me. Yep. Double underlined. And this catagory also sums up a great deal of other people too.

[footpad]

Thirded

[heavens_steed]

I propose to you that the reason you're calling yourself a loser, is because you're working from the axiom that normal people can, and should, be able to elevate themselves to success no matter where they start from.Yes and I do believe that is true in places like the United States. It's less true than it use to be and continuing in that direction but this country still offers tremendous opportunity to people starting out from nothing more than nearly any other place on Earth

[footpad]

Actually, I think your self-perception as a loser is probably mostly to do with depression, which does strange things to our heads, and makes us blame ourselves for a lot of things we shouldn't. Which kinda makes it hard to argue any of this stull logically, since either you or I may be "arguing" from our respective positions of irrational self-denigration. Oh well.

-

You're pleased to point out the numerous cases of people who've ascended through dedication and discipline. But don't forget those who've applied themselves, taken reasonable precautions, and still been crushed by the vicissitudes of fortune. It's a lot to do with fortitude and perseverance, but it's also a hell of a lot to do with plain blind luck, and it's self-defeating to blame yourself for bad luck.

I do agree that "the victim mentality" reinforces "the loser mentality". We can't just sit around crying, "it's all because society fucked me up, man." But it's still possible to be a blameless victim, because sometimes life just does shit upon us from a great

[corelog]

Exceptionalism, sir, is an attitude which will burn you sooner or later. There is no mileage or virtue in comparing your limits or achievements with others'. Any elation it brings you will be matched by the chagrin when you eventually, inevitably, find yourself outclassed.

How very true! I've lost count of the times I've been stung by this, as I was raised with an exceptionalistic view on life. My worth was largely dictated by what I could do that others couldn't--and when I had no more use to them, my friends would suddenly disappear. Alternately, if my liabilities of temperment and isolation outweighed my usefulness, the same would happen.

I still find myself falling into the trap of this viewpoint, on a regular basis. However, I'm learning to not lean on it quite so heavily. My value is not in what I do that others cannot--in being exceptional. My value lies in the uniqueness of my soul and my perception, not in how exceptional any of my attributes are.

[heavens_steed]

Since you all seem so convinced that I've been the victim of the vicissitudes of fortune, perhaps you'd like to explain to me specifically why this is and provide evidence for that position. I just don't see that. At least 90 percent of my problems and undesirable aspects of my current life are the result of bad decisions I made. I might agree with you in that I was given a bad hand by being born as myself, with my inherently deficient personality and character, lack of competency and talent, sexual perversity, etc. Someone who just doesn't have much potential will never excel very far on their own, regardless of how much or how little they've been given

[footpad]

Aha! Okay. I understand what you mean by the 'exceptional' now. We're just disagreeing over the semantics of a word. I took it to mean, "markedly better than anyone else". If you're using it to mean, "striving towards the best of one's abilities", then we have no great disagreement.

I hope that disposes of that disagreement. *wag*

As for assessing one's value by comparison with others: yes, it's a fundamental human instinct and we all do it. But, speaking with the benefit of a lot of hindsight: it doesn't actually do us much good. The results depend totally on where you set your sights. Compare yourself to the stars and you'll despair; compare yourself to skid row and you'll become happy with something worse than mediocrity. If you've got to compare yourself with someone, compare yourself with you a year ago.

As for your hindrances in life:

• By your own account, you have a family who despise fundamental aspects of your nature (I think it fair to call it "your God-given nature").
• You've come of age in a time when the economy

[heavens_steed]

Spoken like a true loser. No, I don't think YOU are a loser but what you are saying is loser talk. Blaming everything else for one's problems rather than oneself.

While there are some factors outside of my control that have shaped my current situation and life status, most of it is the product of my own failed efforts and poor choices.

[corelog]

I am so incredibly offended by this that I can't even construct a useful comment in reply. I've tried five times. My anger keeps getting in the way.

[heavens_steed]

Maybe you misunderstood what I said. I did not say you were a loser. What I said is that you're suggesting that I think of myself as a victim instead of taking personal responsibility for my own decisions. That's mildly offensive to me. To me, that's how a loser would think.

So I don't understand why you are so offended, but I'm sorry that I did offend you.

[corelog]

you're suggesting that I think of myself as a victim instead of taking personal responsibility for my own decisions.That is precisely NOT what I'm suggesting. I'm suggesting you recognize exactly how much your situation is a result of external forces. Your upbringing, your family, and the actions of those you called friend

[heavens_steed]

Fair enough.

[footpad]

The guy who deliberately broke the window isn't at fault, because there was no police nearby to stop him.

Er... speaking as a left-ish European, and therefore as a pretty radical leftie by American standards: that statement makes my hair stand on end. I've tried squinting at that to see if it turns out to be a caricature, but it still looks to me like it's supposed to be a serious representation of someone's views.

Are you implying that there is anyone, who is of any significance in the American or even European political process, who maintains that the individual has no duty of morality or personal responsibility?

I do hope not. Hopefully I'm just being oversensitive, in the finest leftie tradition. Because otherwise, our chances of constructive political discussion are pretty much fucked.

[corelog]

I'm Canadian, and therefore by nature already pretty far-left by most American standards. Europe doesn't bother me in the slightest. :)

I have, however, had people express that sentiment to me. Nobody of consequence or influence, of course--and everybody else around them tends to immediately pile on and inform them what a load of horseshit that idea is.

To me, anybody who tries to tell me that the individual should be subject to no personal responsibility is not worth discussing things with. They are fairly lunatic, and I'm no more likely to change their mind than I am to sprout wings and fly. And that is what I define as "crazy far-leftie." Since you don't meet that definition, I'm not going to call you crazy. :) And I hope to continue constructive dialogue, too.

[heavens_steed]

Oh, the far left believes people have one moral duty: to pay taxes. Everything else is the government's responsibility.