Comments | harmony_bites: Craft 8: On Plot and Structure

harmony_bites

Craft 8: On Plot and Structure

Aug 28, 2006 15:01

I’ve read/been told two very succinct definitions of plot that have stayed with me, though I can’t remember the source:

1) Get your character up a tree-then throw rocks.
2) …And then it got worse.

I think I'm going to need more than that. I had my arm twisted was encouraged by elidyce and bambu345 to participate in this year's NaNoWrMo. That commits you to ( Read more... )

craft, writing, publishing

Comments 35

ginny_weasley31 August 28 2006, 22:01:57 UTC

I don't think that I've told you this yet, Harmony, but I've really liked reading your posts of all of the data and information, advice, tidbits, & whatnot that you've collected on the 'craft' of writing. I know that it's all to be taken with a grain of salt. What works for one person doesn't necessarily work for the next. (Though there are a few things that definately work more often than not ( ... )

harmony_bites August 28 2006, 22:50:47 UTC

I know that it's all to be taken with a grain of salt. What works for one person doesn't necessarily work for the next. (Though there are a few things that definately work more often than not.)

Well, part of it is product versus process and also context. I think almost any rule is made to be broken depending on your purpose and the context. Otoh, if you are submitting to Dean Wesley Smith's Strange New Worlds anthology, then best I'd think to listen to his prescriptions, cuz he's the gatekeeper. And many editors have common biases.

Process otoh, is much trickier, and I think it's more a matter of doing whatever works for you. It can be helpful to read different ways authors use and try them for yourself--something might click. But I don't think you're necessarily a better or more professional writer if you use an outline.

But given NaNo, it might be something I want to try. Ever tried 15minuteficlets? I did--you're given a prompt and then must write something within 15 minutes. From what resulted and what I've seen by others, you can write ( ... )

ginny_weasley31 August 29 2006, 05:15:34 UTC

I've never looked at 15minuteficlets although I've used speed writing as a writing exercise... I'm sure that it's essentially the same thing. :)

Yes, I've looked at old WIKTT challenge and other old LJ comm challenges for ideas, just to see if they spur anything. :)

I'd encourage you to try the original one--you're very talented and if you could write an original novel... Well, you'd have a shot at getting published--not that's easy even for someone good--it's a tough game.

I thank you for that. I'm not foolish enough to think that any of it's easy. I could get awfully used to seeing rejection letters but it's a never know until you try sorta of thing... and I'll never try until I actually take the time for it.

Do you find you stick to it? Or does your muse laugh wildly at you like mine and just make a mess of it?My outlines are rough. The basics are there. They do get followed, although sometimes slightly late. For example, sometimes what is supposed to happen in chapter 5 doesn't happen until chapter 7 for whatever reason. That's not to say ( ... )

harmony_bites August 29 2006, 22:40:31 UTC

I thank you for that. I'm not foolish enough to think that any of it's easy. I could get awfully used to seeing rejection letters but it's a never know until you try sorta of thing... and I'll never try until I actually take the time for it.

I've known some people who've gotten published, and read a lot about it, and from what I can gather, in a lot of ways its easier to sell a novel than a short story. The short fiction market is very small, and very, very tight. A lot of ficcers start at that end first, and many find it very frustrating to break into.

Usually the way my muse tortures me though is she gives me beautiful, glorious, and amazing inspiration just when I think that winding down my story. Either that inspiration needs to go in at that point in the story or it needs to be added back earlier in the story causing a MASSIVE rewrite.:g: I think though my fav parts of my own stories are the moments I never planned and came out the fingertips at the last minute. They're usually the favs of reviewers too--I guess why I'm a bit ( ... )

clare009 August 28 2006, 23:32:36 UTC

Wow, NANO huh? Ambitious. Good luck *G*. I signed up for the exchange - that's about as ambitious as I can get writing wise.

I've always got several plot bunnies floating around in my head about SS/HG - feel free to pick my brains or bounce ideas off it if you want.

harmony_bites August 29 2006, 10:35:20 UTC

Wow, NANO huh? Ambitious. Good luck *G*. I signed up for the exchange - that's about as ambitious as I can get writing wise.

I considered the exchange, but actually found that more intimidating. There's no wall of shame with NaNo if you can't produce, no recipient you might disappoint--just a chance at breaking my worst writing habit and maybe finding a way to get the juices flowing.

I've always got several plot bunnies floating around in my head about SS/HG - feel free to pick my brains or bounce ideas off it if you want.

Heh. You have any spare ones, send them over--though I may ginny_weasley31's suggestion and look at the exchange prompts. I figure something might click.

misstee123 August 29 2006, 01:24:29 UTC

I just love reading these posts on writing that you do.

I imagine you'll do great. Something will hit you between now and November. Personally, I'm planning on reading anything you post.

I still don't consider myself a writer, despite what I've tried to do lately. When I think about 50,000 words though, something tells me that unless you just turn into a spewing fountain of words when the ideas hit, it would be better to outline. Even if you just plot out who your characters are, where they start, and where you think they'll end up. I don't claim to know you at all, but from what I've seen, you strike me as a very logical, organized person. Most of theh people I know that have that personality like to have some organization before they start such a large project.

Good luck!!

harmony_bites August 30 2006, 21:35:06 UTC

I usually am logical and organized--to an extent many consider hopelessly anal. But fiction doesn't work too well on that part of the brain. At least not for me up until now, and many bestselling writers of very large epics - like Stephen King - never outline.

No real rules about the writing process--just different things you can try.

Just hope that what I do write will be in a state to be read by anyone;-)

argosy August 29 2006, 04:52:02 UTC

Plot is a mystery. Who the hell knows? I feel like my work -- and that inludes non-fandom stuff -- never has a plot, unfortunately. A lot of the quotes above seem to think "plot" is the same as "outline" which I don't see.

I wish I could write a big adventure story or somethingbut it doesn't seem fated to happen. Good luck with NaNoWriMo. About D/Hr... I always sorta wanted to write/see a longish "8th year" fic where it would be after the war, and those who had to quit school in wartimes could go back and finish if they wanted and Draco was placed in Gryffindor for the sake of school unity, and cause all the Slytherins now hated him for his reluctant acts on the side of good... I'm just sayin'.

Besides, darth_luna is back

She is? She didn't say anthing to me.

Come read my new drabble. It's weird.

argosy August 29 2006, 04:54:35 UTC

Oh, but I am a frim believer in "Freytag" and dramatic structure and rising action, which is what makes even my "plotless" stuff readable.

harmony_bites August 29 2006, 22:36:29 UTC

I'm actually going to try and read this stuff and outline with NaNo in mind. You can't use an old project, and you can't start writing before November, but you are allowed to outline. So if I can get a good bunny and outline before it starts, I figure that could take care of a lot of the terror.

Only one problem--never done it. Successfully. I tried it with one chapter in BOS and my muse laughed and not one point made it into the chapter.

harmony_bites August 29 2006, 22:34:10 UTC

A lot of the quotes above seem to think "plot" is the same as "outline" which I don't see.

I think that's selection bias. I try to not quote a length--partly cuz I don't want to try people's patience, but also you quote too much there's fair use issues. I look for two things--comments about bad things I see others pull in fic--things I hope that with the authority of editors and agents behind it will encourage people to stop doing that! The other things I look for are concrete hints/tips.

With plot, there's a lot of analysis of tropes, types, models, devices, and structure too involved to easily excerpt. Other than that, there is a lot about whether or not to outline, and how to do it. Lots of authors, obviously, don't do it. Some do--George obviously, and though I didn't quote from him here, Terry Brooks.

I wish I could write a big adventure story or somethingbut it doesn't seem fated to happen.Never say never. I spent two years in Trek and never wrote a story over 20 thousand words. Now in HP I have a 40 thousand word plus WIP ( ... )