Back to basics

[glenatron]

I was working with Cash this evening, helping him to figure out back-up under saddle. He's doing so great now- we're approaching the point where the main thing he will need is just miles on the clock

Comments

[joycemocha]

First of all, cool! Good progress. And so cool for you that you stopped the session at just the right point! Your rationale is entirely correct, especially since you're retraining. I might suggest that this is something to work on from the ground. I don't know if you've been trained to use cluck when you ask for transitions, but that's something my trainer is very firm about--and he starts patterning a whoa, then back very early from the ground. It's part of how you can get a good reining stop. The horse anticipates that it is very likely to be asked to back up, so G does a "whoa," then cluck back from the ground, until it's almost a reflex based on the horse's observation of whether you're turning to face him or not

[glenatron]

I don't like to ground drive because I don't have a sidepull and I don't think you can get a decent amount of feel on a horse's mouth through long lines, so you end up teaching them things you'll need to unteach later. I would prefer to do that the way I want it to feel right from the start. One of the things that I got from learning with Martin, who does everything from the saddle, is that you can do everything from the saddle if you are so inclined

[joycemocha]

To be honest, I think you're overworried about the teaching wrong things from the ground. I do use a sidepull when I'm driving but I do that only with Mocha, who's already learned how to give to pressure. If you set it up right then it's no problem driving with a snaffle, especially a fat smooth snaffle. I also don't strive to have a direct contact at all times, necessarily. There is a comfort level in a sidepull that allows work at all three gaits, but it's perfectly acceptable to do it in a bit. And heck, those Spanish Riding School guys follow so close that it scares the crap out of me! Still, if you're not comfortable with it, it's probably not the thing to do. He'll pick up on your tension and respond poorly

[glenatron]

I want things in my hand to be fairly subtle and I just don't think you get that subtlety on a long rein. I mean yes, you can craft that in later, but why go too far one way just to come back? It's not a question of tension, I've just watched the people I've learned with who used to teach it moving away and listened to their explanations and found what they had to say was coherent with my experience. Also for me timing is easier in the saddle because I can feel all the feet, so I don't have to know where they are.

The thing about control of the feet is that it allows you to get with the horse's mind a whole lot- you can do amazing things if the horse will let you into their mind and on the start one way to do that is by getting down to their feet. If you ever saw Ray Hunt ride, in person or on video, he was always talking about the relationship between the mind and the feet. I feel that if you can achieve the level of subtlety and willing compliance that he did, why would you not want to? By being in time with the feet and only

[joycemocha]

You see, I think Ray used feet and controlling the feet as a metaphor for a specific sort of awareness of the horse's body, and that's the only way he could find to describe it. For whatever reason, focusing on the feet doesn't work for me (and it's not just on a horse's back, but in ballet, yoga and other areas, probably based on a quirk of my conformation that I note below). That's why I know that it's not as crucial as others insist to know the feet. It's just a learning tool, and there are many learning tools. My methodology is more of a gestalt awareness than a straightforward foot focus. I also feel that obsessing over foot control leads to the slippery slope of predator/prey ideology, and, well, you've seen my ranty rant on that one. "Controlling the feet" has always troubled me from a psychological point of view, because I don't think that's what an alpha mare is thinking, and I think we miss the point far too much if we keep harping on controlling the feet and not on what the alpha mare thinks and does to control her

[glenatron]

In terms of taking the horse out of the horse, I think a lot about the desensitisation a lot of people tend to use. Watch someone like Clinton Anderson on his TV and video shows and you'll see the horse being taken out of the horse. The result is a steady, safe, obedient horse with mechanical responses and a shut down personality. Tends to go hand in hand with flooding-oriented training which I also find disagreeable but seems to be favoured by a lot of high profile trainers

[joycemocha]

I am so with you on the flooding piece. I think Anderson overdoes it and I suspect using the predator/prey analogy leads to that sort of flooding desensitization which then progresses to a shut-down, compliant horse that is silently rebellious. I think you have to give the horse space to issue their objections, and understand why you're asking them to do something rather than just plain compel once you get past basic safety (I also hatehatehate the timed competition training stuff. So you can overwhelm a colt to the point where you can stand on his back after a set period of time and do other stuff? That's not training, that's circus tricks. And will it stick?). But you don't need to flood the horse to get basic safety stuff down. And you can't desensitize the horse to everything. Rather, you need to teach the horse that you're its leader, so that the horse reacts, then checks in with you (the jump, then freeze. You don't always want to have that jump gone, not if you plan to trail ride. That startle reaction from an

[glenatron]

For more on working with the inside of the horse, I'm sure you're a regular already, but I certainly recommend Ross Jacobs' Blog - along with Mugwump he's probably the most interesting horse training related blog out there.

[joycemocha]

No, I haven't--thanks! I see he's a 2nd method Baucherist (from his description of getting the horse off of the forehand, classic from Jean-Claude Racinet).

You might want to look Racinet up. Here's a good place to start:
http://www.learningjoyresources.com/dressage.html
http://horsesforlife.com/content/view/1687/1433/

I dearly wish I'd had the chance to ride Mocha in one of his clinics before he passed. I audited one of his clinics, and it was marvelous. Everything that was talked about in the second link.

[glenatron]

Ross is very well read but his core teaching these days is mostly influenced by Harry Whitney. I was talking with him over email a while ago and he said that Ray was the best horseman he ever saw, but Harry was a very close second and Harry can explain what he is doing. That put him right on the list of people I would like to learn with.

[greyskyridge]

Where are you getting that dressage-oriented trainers don't like a backup?

I have had (simultaeneously) a QH, a TB, and a WB in training with the same dressage trainer (a pupil of Zettl's who is a genius with the long lines and can have a horse perform an entire GP test in them) and they all did backing as part of every lesson. Most important was the "schaukel" which is a combination of back and forward

[joycemocha]

I've encountered this attitude in low-level "expert" discussions, either online, in person, or in discussions of their interpretation of the training pyramid. It's pervasive enough at those levels to easily be someone's misinterpretation of what a clinician said, writ large.

I'm glad this attitude appears to be a lower level thing and not at all common, then. Happens.

[glenatron]

Among people who have a lot of experience riding and training dressage and event horses here in the UK, not necessarily professionals, but people who have ridden and competed a lot for a long time, have worked full time with horses at some point and learned with illustrious and well regarded trainers. Certainly people whose experience I have learned a lot from and whose opinions in other respects I agree with a lot more. Bear in mind that we do have a long tradition of embarrassingly terrible equitation in the UK, although we are traditionally very good at riding horses fast at hedges, which is apparently what matters.

Certainly my dressage teacher wouldn't say that ( and I wouldn't ride with a dressage instructor who did ) but I have never seen a dressage horse that backs up the way I like a horse to back up, although I have only seen dressage ridden at a local show type level and at the WEG/Olympics. I'm sure there are people working their horses that way and using it in competition, but I have never been fortunate enough to see

[greyskyridge]

How does your dressage teacher ask you to back up?

I ask because in your description of the components of a good backup, you say the head should be low. But the dressage objectives like the poll to be the highest point (or at least close if your stallion is cresty). So you will probably not see it in competition ever although this does not mean they can't do it at home.

I am just interested to hear how you amalgate the teachings as I too do several disciplines with the hunters, the dressage, and a little NH sprinkled in on each horse.

What are you thoughts on the back up here at 3:12?
This lady
a.) rides beautifully (at least IMO) and
b.) got great comments for the back up in this test.

[glenatron]

Heh, my dressage teacher only occasionally lets me have reins and certainly no stirrups yet. I've only been learning with him a few years. It will be a while before we work on back-up

[glenatron]

I guess this is about where I'd like his head to be when we're backing up: