I was working with Cash this evening, helping him to figure out back-up under saddle. He's doing so great now- we're approaching the point where the main thing he will need is just miles on the clock
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I don't like to ground drive because I don't have a sidepull and I don't think you can get a decent amount of feel on a horse's mouth through long lines, so you end up teaching them things you'll need to unteach later. I would prefer to do that the way I want it to feel right from the start. One of the things that I got from learning with Martin, who does everything from the saddle, is that you can do everything from the saddle if you are so inclined.
I certainly prefer to do a little preparation on the ground- mostly for getting the horse attentive, getting any extra energy and reactiveness out of the system and the basic manoeuvres that will keep me safe like yielding both ends and backing up, so we have it alright on the ground. I don't see it as a necessity to have a perfect back-up on the ground before I get on, it's not a safety call like being able to control the hindfeet, and I work in the halter on the ground and using a bit from the saddle, so the two are a little different but I don't like to introduce basic movements from the saddle without having worked through them on the ground first.
I have no idea why anyone has a problem with back up really, but I don't know anybody in this country who uses it as much as I do so I guess I'm probably crazy. Still the results seem passable to me. I have been told by experienced and well educated riders who have ridden more horses over bigger jumps than I ever will in my life and I have great respect for in general, that if you back a horse up they will somehow forget how to go forwards.
I'm interested to hear about the carts - that sounds like a pretty reliable way of getting a steady horse ahead of getting on them, though it always seems to me that the room for things to go wrong with driving gear is enormous compared to riding equipment. I guess with everything it comes down to whether the horse is ready.
To be honest, I think you're overworried about the teaching wrong things from the ground. I do use a sidepull when I'm driving but I do that only with Mocha, who's already learned how to give to pressure. If you set it up right then it's no problem driving with a snaffle, especially a fat smooth snaffle. I also don't strive to have a direct contact at all times, necessarily. There is a comfort level in a sidepull that allows work at all three gaits, but it's perfectly acceptable to do it in a bit. And heck, those Spanish Riding School guys follow so close that it scares the crap out of me! Still, if you're not comfortable with it, it's probably not the thing to do. He'll pick up on your tension and respond poorly.
Martin probably comes to that from a ranch cowboy perspective. I'm not that young, not that eager to ride through what it takes to train from the saddle sometimes (not the bucking stuff but the breaking down of tasks and timing of corrections), and so I tend to default to getting stuff solid on the ground, then moving to the saddle. The old lady perspective.
For me, having a solid whoa before butt hits the saddle is a HUGE issue. I don't see a hindfeet issue as being a safety call from my training background, but that's probably because I do more with being able to get a whoa than worrying about whether I control the feet. That's a NH obsession I frankly don't understand, probably because my training is so oriented toward being able to get the whoa solid first. And I don't do one-rein stops. They interfere with later training in bending and flexing, IMO. A philosophical difference, primarily.
I don't think you're crazy about backing up. Your perspective is much more common here in the States, except for dressage-oriented trainers. I don't agree with those riders about backing up a horse eliminates the desire to go forward. They just need to sit on a good reiner or two. Like mine. I dare anyone to tell me that Mocha's forgotten to go forward! Rather, I'd blame too strong a contact used as part of the backing up, and not tying it to something like a stop. Backing is such a crucial part of getting a strong, solid whoa in reining. Myself, I suspect that suggests rather a lack of quality teaching about backing up, but that puzzles me as well. It might also be a difference in horse types, though. A Quarter Horse picks up on backing up and doing so really well. The danger is countering it as a potential evasion, but then, that's what spurs are for (which makes a whole new contingent shudder, but really, it's effective). Other breeds might not respond as automatically as the QH with appropriate form. I continue to be amazed the degree to which phenotype can affect trainability.
Always willing to ramble on about carts. I'd love to teach Mocha to drive, but first I need to get my hands on a cart. You're right about the wreck potential. G has a particularly horrific story about observing a big six horse hitch of Shires pile up at the state fair (he was judging at the time). Something spooked the horses between the show ring and where they were getting unhitched. They took off at a gallop, through bystanders in the middle of a crowded barn. The driver managed to steer the horses into the wash rack, because that's what it took to stop them. I think maybe a couple of horses survived.
However, a cart-broke horse is sure-fire broke. Oh well, maybe I'll get to play with the minis at the barn this summer...we do have a mini cart.
I want things in my hand to be fairly subtle and I just don't think you get that subtlety on a long rein. I mean yes, you can craft that in later, but why go too far one way just to come back? It's not a question of tension, I've just watched the people I've learned with who used to teach it moving away and listened to their explanations and found what they had to say was coherent with my experience. Also for me timing is easier in the saddle because I can feel all the feet, so I don't have to know where they are.
The thing about control of the feet is that it allows you to get with the horse's mind a whole lot- you can do amazing things if the horse will let you into their mind and on the start one way to do that is by getting down to their feet. If you ever saw Ray Hunt ride, in person or on video, he was always talking about the relationship between the mind and the feet. I feel that if you can achieve the level of subtlety and willing compliance that he did, why would you not want to? By being in time with the feet and only asking when the thing I am asking for is possible, my cues are clearer and more meaningful- the horse never has to wait with a cue applied until it is physically possible to follow, so they don't become as quickly dulled to the cues.
I think it probably depends how much you want to take the horse out of the horse- if possible I would like to leave as much horse as I can in and work to pick myself up to the horse's level rather than trying to change the horse to work at my level. To a degree that is unavoidable and there are a lot of things you need to do to get a horse to a place where they can deal with life in the world of humans, but it seems to me that most horses have a whole lot of potential right from the start that most people never really get to realise. Cash is nicer to ride by this point than a lot of horses I have sat on with years of training on them largely because I have only done things I needed to do to get us to where we are and I have worked hard to avoid situations where he he learns things I don't want him to know.
You see, I think Ray used feet and controlling the feet as a metaphor for a specific sort of awareness of the horse's body, and that's the only way he could find to describe it. For whatever reason, focusing on the feet doesn't work for me (and it's not just on a horse's back, but in ballet, yoga and other areas, probably based on a quirk of my conformation that I note below). That's why I know that it's not as crucial as others insist to know the feet. It's just a learning tool, and there are many learning tools. My methodology is more of a gestalt awareness than a straightforward foot focus. I also feel that obsessing over foot control leads to the slippery slope of predator/prey ideology, and, well, you've seen my ranty rant on that one. "Controlling the feet" has always troubled me from a psychological point of view, because I don't think that's what an alpha mare is thinking, and I think we miss the point far too much if we keep harping on controlling the feet and not on what the alpha mare thinks and does to control her space and dominate the herd. Is she controlling the feet or is she controlling the expression of the behavior? I fear that in thinking about the feet so much, we miss so much else.
I focus on what I feel coming through the back and the rein (movement rhythm, patterning, tension in the back, which I feel is a very crucial awareness to have) when I'm riding, and body language on the ground. I think it is very dangerous to obsess about one metaphor--the feet--to the exclusion of all else.
(Another factor is that I have a seatbone that sits higher than the other, so input from that side is delayed at times, which is probably why I rely on awareness from other factors. Another example is that if I think about my feet when I'm dancing, I'm awkward and imbalanced. If I focus on where I'm supposed to be and what I'm doing, I move correctly and in balance. I have to see the motion, then feel it. Thinking about my feet trips me up. Same for skiing)
Sensitivity and responsiveness are not solely derived from the feet. I like the visual processing of being able to work on long reins and I do think the subtlety is possible. However, it takes time, experience and practice to get it. I also like long reins as a desensitizing and training tool. I was good at them before I got Mocha; Mocha with her perceptiveness has made me better at them. It is a more subtle skill to develop than riding, though, and some people are intimidated about the possibilities of a horse blowing up and dealing with the reins. It can be scary because it is a more difficult skill to master than riding, especially if you are working with greenies. But hey, after helping G work with the crazy brain-fried greenie, I'm pretty much over that.
I also think you don't get subtlety from the start but have to refine it from broader cues. But then, for whatever reason, I don't have problems getting horses to be more subtle, even when riding schoolies or rental string critters (I'm the student the teacher always yells at to shorten up the rein, rarely to let go of it).
"Taking the horse out of the horse"--so what exactly does that mean to you? Again, to me that resonates of a shorthanding that gets repeated over and over without clarification and so on. Perhaps it's been because I've spent most of my horse time with alpha, dominant personalities that won't let a human wipe out their personality. I don't want to bully a horse into compliance, but then again, when I was young, I had a horse who was not shy about expressing her opinion of training she didn't like (i.e., bullying).
I could say more, but gotta go. I'll be putting up a post on one-man horses today--I tend to make a lot of those.
In terms of taking the horse out of the horse, I think a lot about the desensitisation a lot of people tend to use. Watch someone like Clinton Anderson on his TV and video shows and you'll see the horse being taken out of the horse. The result is a steady, safe, obedient horse with mechanical responses and a shut down personality. Tends to go hand in hand with flooding-oriented training which I also find disagreeable but seems to be favoured by a lot of high profile trainers.
A lot of the time it's a question of doing more desensitisation than the horse needs, particularly desensitising them to your cues, then having to put the cues back in there. You can also just confuse them so they can't figure out what you want and just end up losing their try, which gives a difficult pattern to break. On the whole it comes down to making the horse do something rather than working with them to do things. Most people get by on that and they're quite happy- in fact most people never learn to see the difference.
I think most my horsey LJ friends tend to be a more thoughtful cast than the majority of riders I see around the place, but being inside a bubble of thoughtful horsemanship does not mean that there isn't a world of terrible equitation beyond it.
I wasn't suggesting that subtlety and responsiveness are derived solely from having a good connection to the feet, but I think it helps to have one and that it really helps with a young horse because it makes it easy for them to understand. Understandability is really important to me in how I work with horses. I bet you have one when you ride, you just don't think about it in those terms because you're thinking about the back and the rein. Ultimately, for me, the thing that matters is the horse's mind and how they feel about what we are doing. As far as metaphors are concerned, one writer I admire observed "I conceive of nothing, in religion, science, or philosophy, that is more than the proper thing to wear, for a while." I think we find ideas that work for us at a time or a stage and then we grow through them and they become part of the foundation of the next stage we move on to.
I don't think that it was strictly a metaphor either, though. The term that I took to describe that all-through awareness is feel and a lot of people have a lot of things to say about that. But Ray could sit on a horse and have them pick up any foot and move it any direction without moving any of their other feet. That's not purely a metaphor, there is a genuine connection there.
I am so with you on the flooding piece. I think Anderson overdoes it and I suspect using the predator/prey analogy leads to that sort of flooding desensitization which then progresses to a shut-down, compliant horse that is silently rebellious. I think you have to give the horse space to issue their objections, and understand why you're asking them to do something rather than just plain compel once you get past basic safety (I also hatehatehate the timed competition training stuff. So you can overwhelm a colt to the point where you can stand on his back after a set period of time and do other stuff? That's not training, that's circus tricks. And will it stick?). But you don't need to flood the horse to get basic safety stuff down. And you can't desensitize the horse to everything. Rather, you need to teach the horse that you're its leader, so that the horse reacts, then checks in with you (the jump, then freeze. You don't always want to have that jump gone, not if you plan to trail ride. That startle reaction from an attentive horse could save your butt).
I always remember Sparkle's reaction to a mountain lion on the other side of a river when we were trail-riding in a group. The other horses were panicky and running out. Sparkle jumped. Snorted. Then stopped and checked in with me. Another time, we encountered her first combine, at dusk, on a blacktop road. She spooked and ran backwards three steps. Then she stopped and checked in. That's what I want.
Doesn't work with hotbloods like Arabs, TBs, or QHs with a lot of TB in them. They tend to be unhappy and rebellious horses.
I think the key is establishing the relationship so that the horse knows you are trying to be fair. Horses understand fairness. I think we as trainers need to give them that space to issue their objections and state their opinions. I think in the long run that leads to a happier and more compliant horse, because they know they can object and you'll listen.
Works for teaching middle school kids, too.
I also see now what you mean by foot control. I think it's a metaphor for feel, but I think too many people focus on the feet and not the feel. I've seen G do the same thing as Ray, only I think he can articulate it a bit more clearly. Not saying he's better, just that he explains what he's doing through the whole process.
(And he will be the first person to tell you I don't always feel the feet. I blame the screwy seatbone for that one. I can feel the left side fine, not the right)
For more on working with the inside of the horse, I'm sure you're a regular already, but I certainly recommend Ross Jacobs' Blog - along with Mugwump he's probably the most interesting horse training related blog out there.
No, I haven't--thanks! I see he's a 2nd method Baucherist (from his description of getting the horse off of the forehand, classic from Jean-Claude Racinet).
I dearly wish I'd had the chance to ride Mocha in one of his clinics before he passed. I audited one of his clinics, and it was marvelous. Everything that was talked about in the second link.
Ross is very well read but his core teaching these days is mostly influenced by Harry Whitney. I was talking with him over email a while ago and he said that Ray was the best horseman he ever saw, but Harry was a very close second and Harry can explain what he is doing. That put him right on the list of people I would like to learn with.
Where are you getting that dressage-oriented trainers don't like a backup?
I have had (simultaeneously) a QH, a TB, and a WB in training with the same dressage trainer (a pupil of Zettl's who is a genius with the long lines and can have a horse perform an entire GP test in them) and they all did backing as part of every lesson. Most important was the "schaukel" which is a combination of back and forward.
I have ridden with a multitude dressage trainers and was a working student for a two time Olympian and I have never heard anything negative about backing up. Backing up is part of every dressage test from Second level on, and in schooling a few steps of backing are routinely used to help develop an upward transition (which obviously would not the technique of choice in an up transition if we all thought it would destroy the forward impulse).
I use it all the time and I have not encountered this prejudice against backing in either the dressage or jumping worlds. The only time it is seen as "bad" is if a horse backs in the piaffe or something as a forward evasion.
Glenatron, I have been quietly following your blog and think Cash is a real cutie. Good job with him!
I've encountered this attitude in low-level "expert" discussions, either online, in person, or in discussions of their interpretation of the training pyramid. It's pervasive enough at those levels to easily be someone's misinterpretation of what a clinician said, writ large.
I'm glad this attitude appears to be a lower level thing and not at all common, then. Happens.
Among people who have a lot of experience riding and training dressage and event horses here in the UK, not necessarily professionals, but people who have ridden and competed a lot for a long time, have worked full time with horses at some point and learned with illustrious and well regarded trainers. Certainly people whose experience I have learned a lot from and whose opinions in other respects I agree with a lot more. Bear in mind that we do have a long tradition of embarrassingly terrible equitation in the UK, although we are traditionally very good at riding horses fast at hedges, which is apparently what matters.
Certainly my dressage teacher wouldn't say that ( and I wouldn't ride with a dressage instructor who did ) but I have never seen a dressage horse that backs up the way I like a horse to back up, although I have only seen dressage ridden at a local show type level and at the WEG/Olympics. I'm sure there are people working their horses that way and using it in competition, but I have never been fortunate enough to see them.
How does your dressage teacher ask you to back up?
I ask because in your description of the components of a good backup, you say the head should be low. But the dressage objectives like the poll to be the highest point (or at least close if your stallion is cresty). So you will probably not see it in competition ever although this does not mean they can't do it at home.
I am just interested to hear how you amalgate the teachings as I too do several disciplines with the hunters, the dressage, and a little NH sprinkled in on each horse.
What are you thoughts on the back up here at 3:12? This lady a.) rides beautifully (at least IMO) and b.) got great comments for the back up in this test.
Heh, my dressage teacher only occasionally lets me have reins and certainly no stirrups yet. I've only been learning with him a few years. It will be a while before we work on back-up.
I am going to guess wild that there was a link in that text?
For where Cash is now the head should be low, because the alternative is going to be resistant and bracey around the poll and using all those muscles along the bottom of his neck. As he gets more advanced I would expect him to hold himself correctly as some dressage riders would see it. On the whole I prefer the back up you might see on a good cowhorse or reining horse to what you typically see on dressage horses but head position isn't so different in that, it's just that the feet are typically more free and the horse is pulling from behind a little more.
Steve talks about riding with one of his mentors and thinking he had scared the horse because it ran backwards so fast when he picked the rein up. Turned out it was just a horse that knew how to back-up. I like the idea that if my horse is capable of moving in a certain way then they would move in the same way if I asked them to.
I certainly prefer to do a little preparation on the ground- mostly for getting the horse attentive, getting any extra energy and reactiveness out of the system and the basic manoeuvres that will keep me safe like yielding both ends and backing up, so we have it alright on the ground. I don't see it as a necessity to have a perfect back-up on the ground before I get on, it's not a safety call like being able to control the hindfeet, and I work in the halter on the ground and using a bit from the saddle, so the two are a little different but I don't like to introduce basic movements from the saddle without having worked through them on the ground first.
I have no idea why anyone has a problem with back up really, but I don't know anybody in this country who uses it as much as I do so I guess I'm probably crazy. Still the results seem passable to me. I have been told by experienced and well educated riders who have ridden more horses over bigger jumps than I ever will in my life and I have great respect for in general, that if you back a horse up they will somehow forget how to go forwards.
I'm interested to hear about the carts - that sounds like a pretty reliable way of getting a steady horse ahead of getting on them, though it always seems to me that the room for things to go wrong with driving gear is enormous compared to riding equipment. I guess with everything it comes down to whether the horse is ready.
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Martin probably comes to that from a ranch cowboy perspective. I'm not that young, not that eager to ride through what it takes to train from the saddle sometimes (not the bucking stuff but the breaking down of tasks and timing of corrections), and so I tend to default to getting stuff solid on the ground, then moving to the saddle. The old lady perspective.
For me, having a solid whoa before butt hits the saddle is a HUGE issue. I don't see a hindfeet issue as being a safety call from my training background, but that's probably because I do more with being able to get a whoa than worrying about whether I control the feet. That's a NH obsession I frankly don't understand, probably because my training is so oriented toward being able to get the whoa solid first. And I don't do one-rein stops. They interfere with later training in bending and flexing, IMO. A philosophical difference, primarily.
I don't think you're crazy about backing up. Your perspective is much more common here in the States, except for dressage-oriented trainers. I don't agree with those riders about backing up a horse eliminates the desire to go forward. They just need to sit on a good reiner or two. Like mine. I dare anyone to tell me that Mocha's forgotten to go forward! Rather, I'd blame too strong a contact used as part of the backing up, and not tying it to something like a stop. Backing is such a crucial part of getting a strong, solid whoa in reining. Myself, I suspect that suggests rather a lack of quality teaching about backing up, but that puzzles me as well. It might also be a difference in horse types, though. A Quarter Horse picks up on backing up and doing so really well. The danger is countering it as a potential evasion, but then, that's what spurs are for (which makes a whole new contingent shudder, but really, it's effective). Other breeds might not respond as automatically as the QH with appropriate form. I continue to be amazed the degree to which phenotype can affect trainability.
Always willing to ramble on about carts. I'd love to teach Mocha to drive, but first I need to get my hands on a cart. You're right about the wreck potential. G has a particularly horrific story about observing a big six horse hitch of Shires pile up at the state fair (he was judging at the time). Something spooked the horses between the show ring and where they were getting unhitched. They took off at a gallop, through bystanders in the middle of a crowded barn. The driver managed to steer the horses into the wash rack, because that's what it took to stop them. I think maybe a couple of horses survived.
However, a cart-broke horse is sure-fire broke. Oh well, maybe I'll get to play with the minis at the barn this summer...we do have a mini cart.
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The thing about control of the feet is that it allows you to get with the horse's mind a whole lot- you can do amazing things if the horse will let you into their mind and on the start one way to do that is by getting down to their feet. If you ever saw Ray Hunt ride, in person or on video, he was always talking about the relationship between the mind and the feet. I feel that if you can achieve the level of subtlety and willing compliance that he did, why would you not want to? By being in time with the feet and only asking when the thing I am asking for is possible, my cues are clearer and more meaningful- the horse never has to wait with a cue applied until it is physically possible to follow, so they don't become as quickly dulled to the cues.
I think it probably depends how much you want to take the horse out of the horse- if possible I would like to leave as much horse as I can in and work to pick myself up to the horse's level rather than trying to change the horse to work at my level. To a degree that is unavoidable and there are a lot of things you need to do to get a horse to a place where they can deal with life in the world of humans, but it seems to me that most horses have a whole lot of potential right from the start that most people never really get to realise. Cash is nicer to ride by this point than a lot of horses I have sat on with years of training on them largely because I have only done things I needed to do to get us to where we are and I have worked hard to avoid situations where he he learns things I don't want him to know.
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I focus on what I feel coming through the back and the rein (movement rhythm, patterning, tension in the back, which I feel is a very crucial awareness to have) when I'm riding, and body language on the ground. I think it is very dangerous to obsess about one metaphor--the feet--to the exclusion of all else.
(Another factor is that I have a seatbone that sits higher than the other, so input from that side is delayed at times, which is probably why I rely on awareness from other factors. Another example is that if I think about my feet when I'm dancing, I'm awkward and imbalanced. If I focus on where I'm supposed to be and what I'm doing, I move correctly and in balance. I have to see the motion, then feel it. Thinking about my feet trips me up. Same for skiing)
Sensitivity and responsiveness are not solely derived from the feet. I like the visual processing of being able to work on long reins and I do think the subtlety is possible. However, it takes time, experience and practice to get it. I also like long reins as a desensitizing and training tool. I was good at them before I got Mocha; Mocha with her perceptiveness has made me better at them. It is a more subtle skill to develop than riding, though, and some people are intimidated about the possibilities of a horse blowing up and dealing with the reins. It can be scary because it is a more difficult skill to master than riding, especially if you are working with greenies. But hey, after helping G work with the crazy brain-fried greenie, I'm pretty much over that.
I also think you don't get subtlety from the start but have to refine it from broader cues. But then, for whatever reason, I don't have problems getting horses to be more subtle, even when riding schoolies or rental string critters (I'm the student the teacher always yells at to shorten up the rein, rarely to let go of it).
"Taking the horse out of the horse"--so what exactly does that mean to you? Again, to me that resonates of a shorthanding that gets repeated over and over without clarification and so on. Perhaps it's been because I've spent most of my horse time with alpha, dominant personalities that won't let a human wipe out their personality. I don't want to bully a horse into compliance, but then again, when I was young, I had a horse who was not shy about expressing her opinion of training she didn't like (i.e., bullying).
I could say more, but gotta go. I'll be putting up a post on one-man horses today--I tend to make a lot of those.
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A lot of the time it's a question of doing more desensitisation than the horse needs, particularly desensitising them to your cues, then having to put the cues back in there. You can also just confuse them so they can't figure out what you want and just end up losing their try, which gives a difficult pattern to break. On the whole it comes down to making the horse do something rather than working with them to do things. Most people get by on that and they're quite happy- in fact most people never learn to see the difference.
I think most my horsey LJ friends tend to be a more thoughtful cast than the majority of riders I see around the place, but being inside a bubble of thoughtful horsemanship does not mean that there isn't a world of terrible equitation beyond it.
I wasn't suggesting that subtlety and responsiveness are derived solely from having a good connection to the feet, but I think it helps to have one and that it really helps with a young horse because it makes it easy for them to understand. Understandability is really important to me in how I work with horses. I bet you have one when you ride, you just don't think about it in those terms because you're thinking about the back and the rein. Ultimately, for me, the thing that matters is the horse's mind and how they feel about what we are doing. As far as metaphors are concerned, one writer I admire observed "I conceive of nothing, in religion, science, or philosophy, that is more than the proper thing to wear, for a while." I think we find ideas that work for us at a time or a stage and then we grow through them and they become part of the foundation of the next stage we move on to.
I don't think that it was strictly a metaphor either, though. The term that I took to describe that all-through awareness is feel and a lot of people have a lot of things to say about that. But Ray could sit on a horse and have them pick up any foot and move it any direction without moving any of their other feet. That's not purely a metaphor, there is a genuine connection there.
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I always remember Sparkle's reaction to a mountain lion on the other side of a river when we were trail-riding in a group. The other horses were panicky and running out. Sparkle jumped. Snorted. Then stopped and checked in with me. Another time, we encountered her first combine, at dusk, on a blacktop road. She spooked and ran backwards three steps. Then she stopped and checked in. That's what I want.
Doesn't work with hotbloods like Arabs, TBs, or QHs with a lot of TB in them. They tend to be unhappy and rebellious horses.
I think the key is establishing the relationship so that the horse knows you are trying to be fair. Horses understand fairness. I think we as trainers need to give them that space to issue their objections and state their opinions. I think in the long run that leads to a happier and more compliant horse, because they know they can object and you'll listen.
Works for teaching middle school kids, too.
I also see now what you mean by foot control. I think it's a metaphor for feel, but I think too many people focus on the feet and not the feel. I've seen G do the same thing as Ray, only I think he can articulate it a bit more clearly. Not saying he's better, just that he explains what he's doing through the whole process.
(And he will be the first person to tell you I don't always feel the feet. I blame the screwy seatbone for that one. I can feel the left side fine, not the right)
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You might want to look Racinet up. Here's a good place to start:
http://www.learningjoyresources.com/dressage.html
http://horsesforlife.com/content/view/1687/1433/
I dearly wish I'd had the chance to ride Mocha in one of his clinics before he passed. I audited one of his clinics, and it was marvelous. Everything that was talked about in the second link.
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I have had (simultaeneously) a QH, a TB, and a WB in training with the same dressage trainer (a pupil of Zettl's who is a genius with the long lines and can have a horse perform an entire GP test in them) and they all did backing as part of every lesson. Most important was the "schaukel" which is a combination of back and forward.
I have ridden with a multitude dressage trainers and was a working student for a two time Olympian and I have never heard anything negative about backing up. Backing up is part of every dressage test from Second level on, and in schooling a few steps of backing are routinely used to help develop an upward transition (which obviously would not the technique of choice in an up transition if we all thought it would destroy the forward impulse).
I use it all the time and I have not encountered this prejudice against backing in either the dressage or jumping worlds. The only time it is seen as "bad" is if a horse backs in the piaffe or something as a forward evasion.
Glenatron, I have been quietly following your blog and think Cash is a real cutie.
Good job with him!
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I'm glad this attitude appears to be a lower level thing and not at all common, then. Happens.
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Certainly my dressage teacher wouldn't say that ( and I wouldn't ride with a dressage instructor who did ) but I have never seen a dressage horse that backs up the way I like a horse to back up, although I have only seen dressage ridden at a local show type level and at the WEG/Olympics. I'm sure there are people working their horses that way and using it in competition, but I have never been fortunate enough to see them.
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I ask because in your description of the components of a good backup, you say the head should be low. But the dressage objectives like the poll to be the highest point (or at least close if your stallion is cresty). So you will probably not see it in competition ever although this does not mean they can't do it at home.
I am just interested to hear how you amalgate the teachings as I too do several disciplines with the hunters, the dressage, and a little NH sprinkled in on each horse.
What are you thoughts on the back up here at 3:12?
This lady
a.) rides beautifully (at least IMO) and
b.) got great comments for the back up in this test.
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I am going to guess wild that there was a link in that text?
For where Cash is now the head should be low, because the alternative is going to be resistant and bracey around the poll and using all those muscles along the bottom of his neck. As he gets more advanced I would expect him to hold himself correctly as some dressage riders would see it. On the whole I prefer the back up you might see on a good cowhorse or reining horse to what you typically see on dressage horses but head position isn't so different in that, it's just that the feet are typically more free and the horse is pulling from behind a little more.
Steve talks about riding with one of his mentors and thinking he had scared the horse because it ran backwards so fast when he picked the rein up. Turned out it was just a horse that knew how to back-up. I like the idea that if my horse is capable of moving in a certain way then they would move in the same way if I asked them to.
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Sorry about the link, I suppose I got a little carried away with the re-watching instead of the copy and pasting:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUAMwuyAus0
I personally just love how she rides, but I am certainly open to other perspectives.
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