Re: Puck, Lauren, and "Shallow Hal"chirpingemuAugust 27 2011, 15:00:58 UTC
Another thing that bothers me about such themes (the idea that a large or otherwise not-conventionally-beautiful woman can't find love from a handsome man without her changing or something literally impossible happening, as in Shallow Hal) is that it's actually a double standard.
It's not unusual, especially in comedy, for an overweight male character to snag a standard Hollywood beauty because of his character. He makes her laugh, he's a sweet-natured guy, etc..
In other words, men aren't expected to do anything but adhere to standards of conventional beauty. Women, on the other hand, are expected to look beyond those standards. Why don't we expect both sexes to stop thinking what Hollywood and fashion designers tell them to think?
Re: Puck, Lauren, and "Shallow Hal"raven_myope400August 27 2011, 17:48:11 UTC
I'd just like to say that to a certain extent I agree with you, that thinking that a woman who's larger than the socially idealised size makes you a bit of a jerk... but that's how Puck was
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THIS COMMENT IS TMI AND VERY TRIGGERY ABOUT EATING DISORDERSjoyfulAugust 27 2011, 19:38:06 UTC
Okay, if I say anything insulting or snappish or bitchy, I'm sorry. I'm really bad sometimes about talking about things that affect me personally
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Re: THIS COMMENT IS TMI AND VERY TRIGGERY ABOUT EATING DISORDERSjoyfulAugust 27 2011, 19:38:39 UTC
fucking character limitsAnd this is why I have such a problem with the portayal of "fat girls" on Glee. It has been directly stated that Lauren has a thyroid problem. This affects weight control. Yeah, she likes food, but she's also athletic and very active. If it weren't for her thyroid, even with the way she eats, she'd probably be a lower weight. Not thin, but not obese
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Re: THIS COMMENT IS TMI AND VERY TRIGGERY ABOUT EATING DISORDERSchirpingemuAugust 28 2011, 03:32:20 UTC
Can I just say that you much be one heck of an amazing and wonderful person? Genetics has dropped so many safes on top of your head and you come across as somebody who's fighting all of that with grace and with so much caring for others.
I think the biggest issue with the interpretation is the source material. Glee is written by three white, skinny men, and it shows. Everything that doesn't relate to them is played off as a gag(P.O.C, chubbiness, bisexuality). Puck and Lauren's relationship is fraught with this. Season two Puck and season one Puck are almost completely different characters, and I'm glad. Season two Puck is much more likeable and interesting. One of the huge differences is who he dates. Think about the people he went out with last year: Rachel, Quinn, Santana, Brittany... None lasted very long. Then you have Lauren, who is a total 180 from them, and you have one of the longest running relationships on the show. But it seems that RIB threw Lauren in because they needed a semi-permanent member to replace Kurt, and they thought that having her go out with Puck of all people would be a novelty. They clearly don't think it's realistic. They needed an inner monologue for Puck to even explain why he wanted her, and for a while, their courtship was based on
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Add upper/middle class and able-bodied to your second sentence (And cisgender) and I'd say that's about right. Because the jokes about Artie not being able to brush his teeth, and struggle with two-pound weights (despite the fact that he uses a manual wheelchair, wtf?) are just as offensive to me as the jokes about Lauren always eating, and Mercedes caring more about tater tots than her friends. Oh, we can add mentally normative to the list as well, because God knows that Emma's OCD has been turned into a punchline more than I ever could have imagined going into this show. And Holly's bipolar comments made me so personally upset I cried.
The Mercedes/"Bubba" thing bothers me. I really liked the idea of Samcedes. They should have just stuck with Anthony Rashad, instead of casting a whole new character
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No,there are plenty of facets of the writing of this show that are problematic. I only really went into the ones that were relevant to the discussion.
Ryan Murphy may be gay, but he still had white male privilege and an average body type . That's the thing. Gay male relationships were always put on a pedestal, because that's what he knows. Lesbians were, for the majority of the show, treated as less important. Even Sexy came pretty much out of the blue, and it was clear that the storyline was not something they had been planning for Santana. And the way they approach bisexuality is pretty terrible. They ignore all of Santana's previous attraction/relationships with men because you can either be a lesbian or a straight female, because the writers are either gay men or straight. Personally I think her shrub speech made her more likely to be pansexual, but w/e. The only reason Brittany is even considered to be bi is because they needed a good reason for her to stay with Artie
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Calling Finn the terrible person in that relationship is really a joke. Neither treated the other very well but only Finn gets the hate because guys are supposed to treat girls with respect but girls can do whatever the Hell they want. The girls demand respect from the guys but they don't treat the guys with any respect so they don't deserve respect. It works both ways. Rachel was demeaning and controlling and manipulative and abusive. She's the only character who cheated with the intention to hurt someone but that was completely forgotten about. The girls constantly insult the boys, put them down, have actually slapped them, and then everyone gets offended that the boys don't treat them with respect. There is a double standard on the show but it's that the girls gets away with treating the boys like crap when the boys would/are called abusive for doing the same things.
I think the girls get away with it because the writers believe this is how all women are. All women treat men like crap, so why would anyone call them out? Just my thoughts.
I feel like that's a cop-out, especially when people are going to say 'okay, so the girl's a bitch but that's just the writer's fault' then turn around and call out the guy for doing the same thing. And it's not an RIB thing, it's a society thing. Boys can't hit girls but girls can hit boys. There's a reason why boys don't think they can come forward and admit to feeling abused. The fandom doesn't call the girls out on it either. Rachel gets treated like a victim when she's the one responsible for her relationship ending. Rachel shows the club no respect by putting down their talents then everyone whines about how they don't appreciate her. I wouldn't respect her either if she was always telling me how much better than me she is. If we're not going to call the girls out because RIB think that's how all women are, then we shouldn't be calling the boys out on the way they're being written because that's the way RIB think straight or gay boys are. Like I said, it's a cop-out.
I never say that Rachel wasn't a terrible person as well. She is. But Finn is excused a lot more than she is. He cheated on what he thought was his pregnant girlfriend, which was excused because she was lying to him. The show generally acknowledges when Rachel is being horrible. Her cheating was not written off, where Finn's was. But Finn is excused because he's a dumb teenage boy. I also mentioned that it is treated as the norm that all women are, by nature, nagging liars. All men who have to put up with them are long suffering Good Guys. No matter what Finn or Will do, they are always presented as the righteous, decent leaders. Will cheats on Emma, and it's never mentioned beyond a line or two, and it's excused because he was "finding himself". Quinn cheats on the boyfriend who cheats on her, and she loses everything, and it's never forgotten. Forgiven, maybe, but not forgotten
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A discussion based on some potentially hurtful messages that could come from using Puck and Lauren in a "Shallow Hal" AU.
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It's not unusual, especially in comedy, for an overweight male character to snag a standard Hollywood beauty because of his character. He makes her laugh, he's a sweet-natured guy, etc..
In other words, men aren't expected to do anything but adhere to standards of conventional beauty. Women, on the other hand, are expected to look beyond those standards. Why don't we expect both sexes to stop thinking what Hollywood and fashion designers tell them to think?
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The Mercedes/"Bubba" thing bothers me. I really liked the idea of Samcedes. They should have just stuck with Anthony Rashad, instead of casting a whole new character ( ... )
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Ryan Murphy may be gay, but he still had white male privilege and an average body type . That's the thing. Gay male relationships were always put on a pedestal, because that's what he knows. Lesbians were, for the majority of the show, treated as less important. Even Sexy came pretty much out of the blue, and it was clear that the storyline was not something they had been planning for Santana. And the way they approach bisexuality is pretty terrible. They ignore all of Santana's previous attraction/relationships with men because you can either be a lesbian or a straight female, because the writers are either gay men or straight. Personally I think her shrub speech made her more likely to be pansexual, but w/e. The only reason Brittany is even considered to be bi is because they needed a good reason for her to stay with Artie ( ... )
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